What are all the colors,in order?

[Narmowen]

Correct me if im wrong but a tri shelties is just that tri factored. As far as white factored you cant tell by how much white is on the front of the sheltie you can only tell if they have the white running up the stifle of the rear leg on either or both sides. I have one white factored male who even though both parents were non-white factored it must have been(which I know) back in his pedigree that pulled it out. He only has one white stifle...on the judge side of course...

You're wrong.

A tri color can be "just a tri", or it can be bi-factored (has the bi gene but doesn't express it).

See my chart up above.

 

[Narmowen]

Ah! Ok. I think I get it now. I think.

There was another thread along time ago that said something about white on the leg meaning the dog was white factored, and I assumed they meant the front legs.

Up the back legs & stifles & belly is an indication that it's white factored. (Sometimes!)

What does bi-factored, tri-factored or white-factored mean, please?

And am I right in saying that a blue merle is actually a tri-colour which has the merling gene?

A bi factored dog is a dog that is sable, tri or a merle (blue or sable) that has 1 bi gene. That means that while it doesn't exress the bi gene, it carries it & will pass it on 50% of the time.

A tri factored dog is a sable & white who carries the tri gene, and can produce tri colors. A pure for sable only carries the sable gene, and cannot produce tri colors.

Please see my chart below (that I posted in the thread already).

Pure for sable = ay/ay = can only produce sables
Tri-factored Sable = mahogony sable = shaded sable = ay/at = can produce sables and tri's
Bi-factored sable = ay/a = can produce sables or bi's
Tri-color = at/at = can produce tri's
Bi factored tri color = at/a = can produce bi's & tri's
Blue merle = at/at M/m = can produce tri's & merles
Bi Blue merle = a/a M/m = can produce bi's & merles
Bi-factored blue merle = at/a M/m = can produce bi's, merles & tri's
Bi black = a/a = can produce bi's
Pure for Sable merle = ay/ay M/m = can produce only sables or merles
Tri-factored sable merle = ay/at M/m can produce sables, tri's or merles
Bi-factored sable merle = ay/a M/m = can produce sables, merles or bi's
Double blue merle = at/at M/M = can produce only merles
Double bi blue merle = a/a M/M = can produce only bi's & merles
Double pure for Sable merle = ay/ay M/M = can produce sables & merles
Double tri-factored Sable merle = ay/at M/M = can produce sables, tri's, merles
Double bi-factored Sable Merle = ay/a M/M = can produce sables, bi's Merles

You need 1 copy of sable to have a sable dog, but 2 copies of tri and bi to have a tri color or bi color. You need 1 copy of merle to have a merled dog.

 

[danisgoat]

Great thread!

I just learned a ton.

 

[Smudge]

Ok, help me out. What the triggerfish is a stifle?


Also, what do all the ay, at, and a's stand for?

I really should not attempt complicated threads right after waking up from a nap or early in the morning. LOL!

 

[tofu pup]

Ok, help me out. What the triggerfish is a stifle?

It's the whole front face of the rear leg - equivalent to the space from your shin to your thigh (remember dogs walk on their toes). "Stifle joint" is the knee.

 

[Narmowen]

Ok, help me out. What the triggerfish is a stifle?


Also, what do all the ay, at, and a's stand for?

I really should not attempt complicated threads right after waking up from a nap or early in the morning. LOL!

ay is sable/white, at is tri color & a is bi color.

 

[Justicemom]

My understanding is that "bi-factored" tris will have darker, smuttier, smaller tan markings than non-bi-factored. I know that Collies don't have the bicolor gene (bicolor collies just don't exist) and Collies tend to have big, clear tan markings.

Here's an ad with a photo of what I would consider a bi-factored tri. And here is one for a dog (on the right) who is definitely not bi-factored. At the same time, it's not totally an either/or... there are a lot of gradations in between "small and dark" and "big and clear" (the dog on the left in the second ad is an example... less tan on the face than on the right, but still lots more than on the bitch in the first ad).

Your Fluffy looks non-bi-factored to me: see how bright and clear and big her tan is?

I heard this too about the tan. Sometimes a I don't think you can tell. However, if one of the parents are is a bi or if the Tri dog has produced a bi you know for sure.

Stay with me this gets confusing.

Diva is a tricolor. I don't know if she carries 2 tri genes or a tri and bi gene. Her Mom, Hope, is a mahogany sable. Very dark, same color as Justice who is bi factored(I know, his dad is a bi black). Hope's mom was sable (pure for) and her dad a bi factored tri(his dad was a bi black). So Diva's mom could be a bi factored or a Tri factored sable. Hope has never had a bi pup out of 7 but she has only been breed to a pure for sable and a tri. So no help there. Diva's Dad is also a bi factored Tri(his dad was bi black). So Diva could have gotten the visiable Tri gene from her mom or dad or an invisable bi gene from her dad with an outside possiblity of getting it from her mom. The only way to know is if Diva produces a bi puppy when bred to a bi factored dog. However, based on the theory of amout of tan indicating Tri factoring Diva is probably a tri factored tri. She has a ton.

Here is a picture of Diva's dad Player(bi factored Tricolor). He doesn't have as much tan as Diva but its clear.

 

[tofu pup]

However, based on the theory of amout of tan indicating Tri factoring Diva is probably a tri factored tri. She has a ton.

Looking at her pictures, I'd agree with you! It's not just the amount of tan, though, it's also the color that tips it off... have a look at this collie. The color and amount of tan on her face is very typical of the breed (and remember, collies don't come in bi-black - so there's no possibility of any bi-factoring, and we can use this as a baseline). Diva's tan color is very similar: bright, clear tan. Compare it to Player's, which is much more rusty/dark.

 

[Narmowen]

Looking at her pictures, I'd agree with you! It's not just the amount of tan, though, it's also the color that tips it off... have a look at this collie. The color and amount of tan on her face is very typical of the breed (and remember, collies don't come in bi-black - so there's no possibility of any bi-factoring, and we can use this as a baseline). Diva's tan color is very similar: bright, clear tan. Compare it to Player's, which is much more rusty/dark.

But Australian Shepherds also come in bi colors, and they generally have very clear & abundant tan points.

 

[tofu pup]

But Australian Shepherds also come in bi colors, and they generally have very clear & abundant tan points.

True, true... but I would argue that bi-black Aussies are a bit more rare than bi-black Shelties. And if you look around online, you can find pictures of black Aussies with tan points that look like the tan points in a "bi-factored" Sheltie.

Here are some. Here are some more. Again, you see a variability in color and size of tan points (particularly in the face) that would suggest that many of these dogs are what we would call "bi-factored" (and a variability that you don't see in Collies).