When Did Balance Become A Dirty Word

Thanks for posting this. I've been trying to come to terms with this new style of training ever since I got Bela a year and a half ago. It always seemed like the methods I learned on (and which worked wonders - Neechee had sever HIT's and a Dog World award in his first three Novice A trials) were no longer acceptable.

Neechee was my first obedience dog, born in 1993. I had him in classes from the time he was 8 weeks old up until he was 7 years old and had to retire because of a shoulder injury. I had an extremely talented trainer who taught with a combination of operant conditioning, positive methods, and mild corrections. The only thing I ever opposed her on was force breaking for the retrieve. For good reason - I had a dog that would retrieve happily on-command or off. After force breaking using an ear pinch, I had a dog that would not even pick up a toy to play with.

I don't believe the article was all that well-thought out. Yes, most dogs (those everyman-Joe, couch potato, companion-only dogs) are abominably behaved and you have inexperienced owners who take dangerous dogs out in public after having successfully completed a basic obedience course. And it IS getting worse. The reason for that, I believe, is that with more awareness of obedience classes (through such chains as Petsmart and Petco) comes the mistaken idea that training is "finished" once the ink is dry on the diploma. It's an ongoing process that ends only when the dog's life does.

My uncle has two small white dogs. Both of them are spoiled rotten, and have successfully passed basic obedience. On the whole, very pleasant little beasties. Until my aunt walks into the room. They suddenly transform into aggressive, biting, and humping monsters. She has no idea of how to handle or "read" them, and they know no one is allowed to discipline them in her presence. There must be negatives to balance the positives.

While I have been attending to Bela's puppy mill madness, I have not taught her even to sit, as she was such a "soft" dog that correction would have made it hundreds of times more difficult to retain her trust. I feel that only now is she confident enough to refine her manners. (She is, fortunately, one of those dogs who are naturally well-mannered.)

It turns out I have always trained in a balanced manner. Handling your dog is like a discussion. If you can't understand the language, how much of a discussion are you going to have? I was agonizing over what method of training to use with Bela - even started her on clicker and targeting, which she took to like a duck to water. I am convinced now that the way I was trained to train is as valid as anyone else's methods.

You just have to "speak dog".
 
If you need to use a choke chain and tie your dog to your leg to teach it to heel that's a reflection on your ability to train, not your dog's ability to learn.

Gah, deleted first response by accident.

Bottom line, I don't like to mess around begging my dog to do stuff. And I don't want to use any method that requires introducing and fading (channel weaves, heeling sticks, etc.) Also, anything that directly involves food is out for this dog, her brains fall out. So no click/treat. She can get click/jackpot when we are done, but give her food and it's all over.

Tying the dog to my leg is an efficient way of making sure the dog is always right, and then reinforcing the crap out of it. Actually any collar will work, doesn't have to be a choke, I had a really nice leather martingale-ish style collar made for her for obedience. I still generally use a choke, because that is what we have always used. I'm not sure why people freak out about that. Do you assume I'm showing my dog on a choke so I can swing her around by it? Do you assume we only use a choke so we can yank and pull and whatever? People who do that will do it regardless of collar, so can we get over the whole choke=EVIL PERSON thing? Seriously, it's not logical. What about conformation people? They ALL USE CHOKES. Are they all trying to hang their dogs too?

I have used the tying to leg method before and it worked well and fast. Mother used it with her last obedience dog, and he rarely lost more than a point on heeling (and usually for bumping).
 
This is probably a really dumb question, and please forgive my ignorance--but are choke collars bad? I was told by my breeder to use one on walks, to minimize the chance of the dogs slipping out of a collar. I use light chains, and neither dog is a puller, so neither "chokes"--and then when walk-time is over, the collar comes off (although they do wear buckled fabric collars all the time, with their tags and ID). Is this considered unkind to the dog??
 
No, chokes are not bad. Especially in our breed, where the necks/hair tend to have a greater circumference than the head, making slipping collars a real problem.

There is a subset of people that equate chokes with stringing the dogs up 100% of the time, and the users of such being evil people that shouldn't own dogs. There is no logical explanation for this, it seems to be an emotional thing. Probably because they equate chokes with the old yank/pull methods of obedience training, they can't imagine that a dog can work in a choke outside of those methods.

My dogs all have "traveling" collars that are the nice White Pine Martingales with their tags, but they are all shown in obedience and breed in lightweight nylon or light chain chokes.
 
This is probably a really dumb question, and please forgive my ignorance--but are choke collars bad? I was told by my breeder to use one on walks, to minimize the chance of the dogs slipping out of a collar. I use light chains, and neither dog is a puller, so neither "chokes"--and then when walk-time is over, the collar comes off (although they do wear buckled fabric collars all the time, with their tags and ID). Is this considered unkind to the dog??

As an alternative to a choke chain, I suggest a martingale - it really does avoid the slipping that Shelties with their large ruffs and small heads are famous for. When attached to a lead, if fits snug around their neck without any choking. When not attached to a lead, its loose. I suppose its a "kinder" choke chain.
 
No, it's not any kind of choke chain. Don't stigmatize another type of collar by attaching a dirty word to it. Adding scare quotes tells us that you really think martingales are in the same "evil" category as chokes.

Perhaps poor choice of wording...I was merely suggesting its a better alternative for dogs that are apt to slip their collars.


But you confuse me...you berate me for suggesting martingales as a kinder choke chain, yet you use choke chains yourself? I missing your point here.
 
I was just fascinated reading this thread and the different viewpoints, wasn't going to post but hey!

I thought the original article while it could have been more succinct, carried some interesting ideas worth discussing.

3Stars, your response was amazing - you should get that published! Thank you for taking the time and trouble to write a reply. :smile2:

From my perspective:
Revel was trained by largely old school methods. He learned to heel through collar corrections (but I never went as far as tapping him under the chin like many BC folk were doing at the time), he was taught a 'forced' retrieve and pushed into sits and downs. He had moderate sucess in obedience competitions and has a decent wall full of awards. But -I was only thinking yesterday that it wasn't surprising he didn't achieve more, it was surprising he achieved as much as he did with my inept handling. It says volumes for the forgiving nature of my dog that he didn't simply go on strike and refuse to cooperate as he must have found it tough. He never had a huge enthusiasm for obedience and now I understand why. I discovered clicker training too late for it to make enough of a difference to Revel, but a fortnight before one of his last competitions I taught him to hand target with the clicker. He went out and won the class over 20 other dogs when the previous occasion he'd been well out of contention.

I will NEVER forget when I first used the clicker to teach that hand target, first with Revel and then with Yogi. For seven years I'd been struggling to make my boy understand what I wanted him to do and he had tried, he really had but it was so frustrating for us both. Within about 20 minutes of the clicker I saw 'the light go on' in his face and suddenly we were not just speaking the same language but the same dialect too. It was profoundly moving - but I don't want this to be sounding evangelical so I'll move on to Yogi...

Yogi is my ex -show dog who at 7 had to be castrated due to a serious medical condition and that was the end of his show career. 7 is too young to retire so we started doing some obedience training, just for fun. I hadn't used the clicker properly before apart from what I've described with Revel but it seemed the obvious tool for Yogi, who won't stand for being manhandled. I could push and push all I liked but he would have resisted going into a down until his legs buckled! With a clicker I had him doing a sendaway down the hall to drop on the mat within a couple of days. For 7 years he had known only to walk 'out' away from me while showing but after a few months of teaching 'watch' he was doing close accurate heelwork. All his life he had been allowed to throw his dumbell at me. After 9 years he will finally sit and hold it until told to give. That has not been an easy route - once I got frustrated and tried to teach him the way I taught Revel. He wouldn't go near that dumbell for months and I learned a valuable lesson so we went back to the clicker. When he sat for 10 secs the first time holding his dumbell I could have cried. It would just never have happened if I had 'made' him do it.

Then I got Epic and he has been clicker trained from the start. The lead is a safety device like a car seat belt when we are out. I do not use it to pull him around - I don't need to. He is easily the most challenging of my dogs but he is also the most receptive to learning. We are doing HTM and have a long way to go but already he has mastered a respectable number of tricks. He is particuarly hand sensitive, even for a sheltie so physically pushing/pulling him around would result in 'shut down'. I can't think of any trick/excersise I have taught him which required me to touch him so it has been a completely hands-off approach. This is the complete opposite to Revel's training and admittedly they have very different personalities but Epic's enthusiasm is boundless. Positive training is the only way I can help him deal with his fear of other dogs by teaching him what is acceptable behaviour. Correction or punishment would only serve to deepen his fear and result in even more negative responses.

It surely speaks for itself that the majority of working dogs - assistance, detection, search and rescue etc are trained using positive methods. They are able to perform very complex and demanding behaviours because of this. I think it would be impossible to teach a dog to indicate cancer cells through anything other than positive training, or to get cash out of a cash machine or unload the washing machine....

Even with Jessica who is 5, I've found positive teaching/encouragement gets results a whole lot quicker than nagging and telling off. The former results in enthusiasm and the latter resentment. I just wish I could consistently remember that! (I'm better at training dogs than children :wink2:)

I'm still a real beginner in the training department and but these are my experiences and as far as I'm concerned, the results of positive training speak for themselves. If I was given the choice of learning through repreated payouts or reprimands I know which I'd chose. I'm not saying corrections etc don't work because I know they do but it's just positive is simply more effective all round. I'm a far better trainer now too. In the past, if something wasn't going the way I wanted it to I would get frustrated, impatient and cross, often I'm sad to say with the dog. Now it's rare there isn't something good to take away from a training session (in itself a positive motivator!) but if it isn't working I go off, think it through and come back with an ammended plan which is usually immediatly sucessful. That proves I was incorrect the first time and not the dog. I guess he's training me while I'm training him and that's what a real partnership is about - learning together. :smile2:
 
It's interesting a numbr of people have mentioned they think dogs are more poorly behaved nowadays. Are they though? I remember when I was younger lots of roaming dogs, aggressive dogs and dog attacks - more than we have now. That's over here anyway. Maybe we are just more aware of incidents and also more aware of what behaviours we should expect. But also it's a very different world for dogs. There are very few 'jobs' for dogs to do nowadays, as humans we find our modern world stressful, imagine how stressful it is for dogs! There's also more laws and regulations on dog control than there ever were before - and there's also more of an anti-dog sentiment out there.

I think that's another reason why it's even more important not to stress a dog by using harsh methods.
 
No, chokes are not bad. Especially in our breed, where the necks/hair tend to have a greater circumference than the head, making slipping collars a real problem.

There is a subset of people that equate chokes with stringing the dogs up 100% of the time, and the users of such being evil people that shouldn't own dogs. There is no logical explanation for this, it seems to be an emotional thing. Probably because they equate chokes with the old yank/pull methods of obedience training, they can't imagine that a dog can work in a choke outside of those methods.

My dogs all have "traveling" collars that are the nice White Pine Martingales with their tags, but they are all shown in obedience and breed in lightweight nylon or light chain chokes.

Thank you--I knew choke collars were not to be worn all the time because of the dangers of them pulling tight, but I didn't understand how a very light chain that never gets pulled tight could be bad. Basically, it's a terrible name...it seems that when used as intended, there's no "choking" involved. And mine wear theirs an hour a day, tops, and only with me on the other end of the leash.
 
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