Would you trial on bare concrete ground

OMG. I watched the link Ashley put up. If I saw Koji struggling, I would have stopped, picked him up, told the judge this was a total joke and walked off and scratched myself for the rest of the trial. (BTW, Ashley, Pasadena? As in CA?)

We trained at our daycare facility that has top notch rubber flooring (for daycare, not necessarily agility, but I'm sure it's good). Koji would slip if I let his paw fur grow too long. But it's what he knew, so he was used to it (meaning, if we had to trial on rubber flooring, we could). However, I'll put it this way. I don't even like trialing on dirt at specific places, cuz it's too hard. Hell, I feel it in my knees after I run, I'm sure he feels it worse, so I stopped going to that place.

If I walked into that place, saw that flooring, I would have walked out and probably figure out what to do. I mean, as an invitational and that bad commentary about only "good" dogs can do this, whatevers. I'd be so PO'd. That's ridiculous. So unsafe for the dogs. Heck, even for me. I'm a total klutz.

I'll put it this way. When I did Rally with Miko and we went to our first indoor match, I thought, oh gawd, he's going to slide when he sits, how's that going to work. I got there and they put down, what was it, a tarp, or paper and taped it down, I was like, oh wow, very nice. If they do that for Rally, where in the novice ring, you're not even jumping over things, then those people should have done a LOT LOT LOT LOT more for an agility trial.

ETA: I think because I'm also a klutz and am afraid Koji will hurt himself (he has no body awareness, so it's more dangerous), I tend to not even run when it's raining. If the contacts aren't rubberized, I debate about running him on wet/dewy mornings (cuz he has slid off before). I tend to think about these things more...just because I know he will go all out, not knowing the dangers, and could possibly hurt himself more than I'm willing to allow. (signed, overprotective mom)
 
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Sharon said:
A dog can injure themselves on the flooring or any flooring!!!
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Sorry for the confusion - I should have explained better. I meant that flooring isn't an obstacle in the courses, and basic precautions are usually taken to reduce the risks of questionable flooring. Most venues I've seen (video and as a spectator only, not a participant) have at least something with traction, not just concrete. Why run dogs on concrete when that is a completely avoidable issue? Organizers should have put something down, gone somewhere else, etc.

Still not sure I'm explaining myself well, it's been a busy week.:(
 
corbinam said:
I am not 100% sure of the location, Cheryl. Someone mentioned Pasadena on FB but who knows how reliable that is.

Here is an interesting article by Suzanne Clothier addressing this:
http://suzanneclothier.com/blog/when-sport-becomes-abuse
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Thank you for posting the link to the video and podcast. I would suggest that anyone who has the time, listen to the attached podcast referenced in the video description on the Youtube page. It is rather long (about 40 min. and I have only had time to listen to a little over 25 min. so far), but it does answer a number of questions that I had after viewing the Youtube video.

I have come away with a bit more understanding of what transpired even though my mind hasn't changed about this being a very bad surface for dogs to have run on. On the other hand, I also came away for the first half of the podcast thinking that Suzanne Clothier was a bit more condescending and judgmental than I would think necessary, given the fact that she was offered a forum to help address those elements that allowed this travesty to occur. I agree with her overall position, but her attitude on the podcast was poor in my opinion.
 
Just in case there is any confusion. There are 2 trials being discussed here. One is an AKC trial - with the "non-skid" film flooring, and the other is an invitational trial in Singapore (organized by the kennel club as part of a pet event held by the pet industry folks together with a training school that does agility) where it was on friggin bare concrete.

I can't agree more that the handlers really should have all just walked out. That would send the strongest message.

For the Singapore trial, I have people telling me after the fact that they wanted to scratch but didn't. God knows why! At least one scratched after one run.

At the AKC trial, from what I'm reading, it would appear they moved the dogs to a different ground when they realized the dogs were slipping?
 
JLSOhio51 said:
Thank you for posting the link to the video and podcast. I would suggest that anyone who has the time, listen to the attached podcast referenced in the video description on the Youtube page. It is rather long (about 40 min. and I have only had time to listen to a little over 25 min. so far), but it does answer a number of questions that I had after viewing the Youtube video.

I have come away with a bit more understanding of what transpired even though my mind hasn't changed about this being a very bad surface for dogs to have run on. On the other hand, I also came away for the first half of the podcast thinking that Suzanne Clothier was a bit more condescending and judgmental than I would think necessary, given the fact that she was offered a forum to help address those elements that allowed this travesty to occur. I agree with her overall position, but her attitude on the podcast was poor in my opinion.
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I listened to the 40 min podcast. It was in Texas. And I'd have to agree with what you wrote above about Suzanne. I was a bit turned off by what she said. I totally get what she was saying, but she was condescending and that did it in for me.

In case anyone doesn't want to listen to it, the woman from the blog/podcast is the one in the video. She left it up so people can learn from her mistake. She said she was the 7th dog running, within the first class for JWW (Standard was in another ring with a different flooring - fake grass I think). No other dogs had any issues so she didn't think she would. She saw her dog slip a bit, but hey, that's happened on other surfaces, so she felt it was okay. She said at one point, as a handler, what we see while running, isn't the same as what you see in a video. Even the weaves, she said she realized her dog was taking 5 steps btwn poles, but felt he was going slow, so it was okay. Versus what we saw, a struggling dog. Also, think about it, as a handler, how fast things go, how fast you have to make decisions.

I see it from both sides. The handler said she didn't realize how bad it was until she saw it for herself. I'm pretty sure the handler didn't realize how bad it was as she was running. We saw it from the beginning, but just think about all the things you see in your vids AFTER the fact. I don't want to put down the handler, as I get what she was saying.

But I do agree that we, as handlers, need to remember to put our dogs safety and health first and foremost. Like I said, people have made comments about me pulling because of rain, but I'd rather be safe and cuddling with Koji in the dry house, than in an ER with a hurt wet dog.

Michelle: you asked how ppl can keep running. Easy. The spirit of the competition, the money spent, time there, etc catches up and you go. Ask people who run after their dog breaks their start-line stay.....they can't help it. Something gets in them and they run after the dog. I've been there. I can't explain what it is, I would see Koji break and think, "oh gawd, I have to catch up and finish". It took a LOT of self-control for me to pick up Koji when he'd break and trust me, people would comment (positively and in shock) that I COULD do that. So, sometimes, we're stupid and we just go. I'm sure most of us here have done it one time or another in their career. Probably more newbies, but still.

I know in your case, with the concrete ground and nothing on it, I definitely would have pulled out before even seeing the first dog run. With the video Ashley posted, I think I would have waited and watched to see how they were doing. If I was early in the line-up, I would have made a note to see how badly Koji was handling it (or not) while I was running. But that's because I know I have a dog with no rear-end awareness who can hurt himself.
 
k9kreationz said:
In case anyone doesn't want to listen to it, the woman from the blog/podcast is the one in the video. She left it up so people can learn from her mistake. She said she was the 7th dog running, within the first class for JWW (Standard was in another ring with a different flooring - fake grass I think). No other dogs had any issues so she didn't think she would. She saw her dog slip a bit, but hey, that's happened on other surfaces, so she felt it was okay. She said at one point, as a handler, what we see while running, isn't the same as what you see in a video. Even the weaves, she said she realized her dog was taking 5 steps btwn poles, but felt he was going slow, so it was okay. Versus what we saw, a struggling dog. Also, think about it, as a handler, how fast things go, how fast you have to make decisions.

I see it from both sides. The handler said she didn't realize how bad it was until she saw it for herself. I'm pretty sure the handler didn't realize how bad it was as she was running. We saw it from the beginning, but just think about all the things you see in your vids AFTER the fact. I don't want to put down the handler, as I get what she was saying.
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FYI, I haven't listened to the podcast, so am just commenting on the podcast based on what others have said. I can understand a handler not seeing all the details of a run when it was happening. But as far as the slippery floor, wouldn't that have been obvious from dogs that went before? And while I haven't been in dog sports (yet!), I've been in other events where scratching was a hard thing but necessary in some cases to preserve the well-being of myself or my teammates. That's supposed to be the most important thing. In some cases, I guess I just wonder how much the game has become about titles, times, whatever, over the fun?
 
The reason the handlers didn't scratch their dogs is it is very hard to walk away when you have money invested.

3 weeks ago in Fargo, I had to pull Diva from Standard because she was sick and threw up after her JWW run. I knew it was the right thing to do but I was tempted anyway. It was harder than I imagined and but I knew if I did go ahead and run her it was selfishness on my part.

I did run her the previous 2 days but I did not realized how sick she was. She acted fine just wasn't up to her normal speed. Everyone who knows her and saw the video or in person noticed it. She Q'd 3 out of 4 times so I was preplexed as to what the real real was. Once I realized she was struggling and why it was a different story.

Hindsight is always 20/20 and unless you are in that position at that time it is hard to judge especially with a new "non slip" sports surface. BUt anyone should know bare concrete is a bad idea to run dogs on.
 
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