A Difficult Decision

I second (or third or whatever!) the suggestion of finding a training club. Even if you can't afford or don't have enough time to commit to an entire class series, just going and talking to a trainer may gain you some valuable insight.

RE: cars/passing dogs. Olive does that all the time. I have been working with her and using two methods that have shown to be effective. One, I just keep walking! I keep my head up, I don't change my pace, and I don't say anything to her when she reacts to the cars. I just keep right on going. She has started to figure out that I'm not reacting to the car, so maybe she doesn't need to react either.

The other technique I've been using, for cars/dogs/people/shadows (she is a huge shadow-chaser), is to step down on her leash and just wait her out. I step down about two feet out from her collar, just enough so she'll feel the slack go out but not anywhere near enough to force her to move. I stand on the leash and wait until she a) puts herself in a down (which at first I used a command for, and now she knows she has to do it), and b) she chills out. I put her at chilled out when she start to sniff the breeze, lay on her side, etc; basically when the tension is gone. By standing on the leash, she doesn't get any of my stress or anxiety channeling through to her. While I wait her out, I ignore her. I call it my doggie meditation time. :smile2:

She still goes berserk when I have her out, but she is getting much better. Your dog will, too. It can take a lot of time and patience. If you know you are going to lose your cool (and I can relate!), work with your dog in smaller time increments. If you study for school at home, study for 45 minutes, then take 5 minutes with your dog. Pick just two or three simple things to work on each week and work only on those. Doing too much at once can be frustrating for you and your dog.

If your parents are receptive, maybe they can help with training. Clicker training might be an option. You could just have them do hand contacts ("touch"). Builds a relationship between them and your dog, and will help your dog become more attentive and responsive to them.
 
celloyogi said:
I second (or third or whatever!) the suggestion of finding a training club. Even if you can't afford or don't have enough time to commit to an entire class series, just going and talking to a trainer may gain you some valuable insight.

RE: cars/passing dogs. Olive does that all the time. I have been working with her and using two methods that have shown to be effective. One, I just keep walking! I keep my head up, I don't change my pace, and I don't say anything to her when she reacts to the cars. I just keep right on going. She has started to figure out that I'm not reacting to the car, so maybe she doesn't need to react either.

The other technique I've been using, for cars/dogs/people/shadows (she is a huge shadow-chaser), is to step down on her leash and just wait her out. I step down about two feet out from her collar, just enough so she'll feel the slack go out but not anywhere near enough to force her to move. I stand on the leash and wait until she a) puts herself in a down (which at first I used a command for, and now she knows she has to do it), and b) she chills out. I put her at chilled out when she start to sniff the breeze, lay on her side, etc; basically when the tension is gone. By standing on the leash, she doesn't get any of my stress or anxiety channeling through to her. While I wait her out, I ignore her. I call it my doggie meditation time. :smile2:

She still goes berserk when I have her out, but she is getting much better. Your dog will, too. It can take a lot of time and patience. If you know you are going to lose your cool (and I can relate!), work with your dog in smaller time increments. If you study for school at home, study for 45 minutes, then take 5 minutes with your dog. Pick just two or three simple things to work on each week and work only on those. Doing too much at once can be frustrating for you and your dog.

If your parents are receptive, maybe they can help with training. Clicker training might be an option. You could just have them do hand contacts ("touch"). Builds a relationship between them and your dog, and will help your dog become more attentive and responsive to them.
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Yes the passing cars is a little hit and miss, but I usually just ignore it, but the thing is that he isn't paying any attention to me.
If I just stepped down on Maverick's leash, it would do squat (to be blunt! loving your suggestions). Waiting him out would be a 45 minute ordeal, trust me. I have tried to wait until he just relaxes, but I seriously could stand there forever. If Maverick knows he can't get to the other dog or thing or just gets anxious, he will throw up his head and howl until I get him to stop. If I don't make him stop, he can go for a long while. I'm thinking that just keeping my pace and continuing to walk past the distraction may help... but I feel like I need to address it and not just ignore it. As soon as Maverick sees another dog, there is about a 1/4 of a second window before he is barking and lunging. Trust me, I have tried again and again to wait until the tension is gone. But I would have to stand there for an hour. I could wait an hour, but really where does my attention span go in that time? I always get more and more anxious when we are just waiting something out.
And yes, time will tell for sure. He has already made a lot of progress in the last while but it has been very rough.

Before I contact a trainer I am going to try my hardest to apply some different walking techniques. Thank you for your input! :)
 
First of all, I am very impressed at your ability to self-reflect! That's an incredible life skill, one that will stand yo in good stead your whole life.

I recommend you get Maverick into obedience class as soon as possible. That will teach both of you how to control feelings of stress and impulses. If possible, find a dog club that has continuing classes. After basic obedience, I enrolled Beckon and me in Rally Obedience courses. What a difference that made for both of us!! Now he feels accomplished and I feel closer to my Big Boy.
 
Coalie said:
Yes the passing cars is a little hit and miss, but I usually just ignore it, but the thing is that he isn't paying any attention to me.
If I just stepped down on Maverick's leash, it would do squat (to be blunt! loving your suggestions). Waiting him out would be a 45 minute ordeal, trust me. I have tried to wait until he just relaxes, but I seriously could stand there forever. If Maverick knows he can't get to the other dog or thing or just gets anxious, he will throw up his head and howl until I get him to stop. If I don't make him stop, he can go for a long while. I'm thinking that just keeping my pace and continuing to walk past the distraction may help... but I feel like I need to address it and not just ignore it. As soon as Maverick sees another dog, there is about a 1/4 of a second window before he is barking and lunging. Trust me, I have tried again and again to wait until the tension is gone. But I would have to stand there for an hour. I could wait an hour, but really where does my attention span go in that time? I always get more and more anxious when we are just waiting something out.
And yes, time will tell for sure. He has already made a lot of progress in the last while but it has been very rough.

Before I contact a trainer I am going to try my hardest to apply some different walking techniques. Thank you for your input! :)
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Is there a way for you to go anywhere where there are fewer distractions? Maybe a fenced backyard, or try working with him at night or early in the morning before the sun comes up? Olive can calm down faster when there are fewer distractions, and that is often when it's dark outside. Much less likely we'll see other dogs or people, cars, etc. We stay in the yard, though; I wouldn't suggest going on a sidewalk/street.

As for reacting to other dogs, you already know he's going to react. There are two problems I can see here, one being that because you anticipate his reaction, you are naturally going to get tense and anxious (even if you don't realize it). The other issue is as he continues to get in the situation of see dog-react to dog-get correction, he is going to anticipate that scenario and the reaction will probably get worse, not better. A possible solution is to avoid encountering other dogs, as much as possible. If on a walk you see a dog coming, immediately turn around and go the other way. Avoid the situation before it starts. Don't give your dog a chance to react.

I'm an amateur as far as obedience-type training goes, but this is what we've always done in the pit/rottie rescues I've worked in. Avoid all the "big stuff" as long as necessary, until the little things are completely solid. Dogs can't jump in the deep end. Once he's become more relaxed with you, without other dogs around, try to find a dog-owner will a very well-mannered dog who can work with you on gradually introducing your dog to other dogs again. This was the only way a lot of our pits were able to function around other dogs. With some we actually had to start with the dogs just hearing each other in separate rooms, then seeing each other through windows, before we could even consider removing barriers or any kind of physical contact. But I guarantee you that the wait is worth it.
 
Everyone has made wonderful suggestions. Hang in there, with some work I believe you can get through this without being forced to give up your friend.

The only other thing I'd suggest is getting this book. The aggression you're describing all sounds fear based. I too have a sheltie with fear issues and this book has a lot of great suggestions that might help you manage his problems in a positive way that will help him to gain confidence. Its written for people dealing with high energy dogs with fear issues. It really opened my eyes, I highly recommend it.

the back of the book says:

Leslie McDevitt's program is designed to help 'dogs with issues' learn how to relax, focus and work off leash reliably in either stimulating or stressful situations. Who needs Control Unleashed?


  • Dogs that are uncomfortable or unable to work off lead around other dogs
  • Dogs that are easily distracted and have difficulty concentrating
  • Dogs that are reactive or easily aroused
  • Dogs that are anxious or stressed and shut down
  • Dos that are unable to contol their impulses when excited.

http://controlunleashed.net/index.html

You can order it from Mungo's Books for Dog People, they're located in Calgary Alberta. The owner is very knowledgeable in dog training, I'd suggest talking to her about your situation, she might be able to recommend a training facility.

http://www.mungosbooks.com/

Good luck and don't give up. Hang in there!
 
Thank you very much to everyone for your input. I'm ordering the book 'Control Unleashed' today because it does seem very tailored to my situation!

As well, I have an update:
I had told my mom my plan to do obedience and such and then if that does not yield results then we may need to explore the possibility of re-homing him. She told my dad without consulting me and he said absolutely not. So I decided I needed to get the entire family together to talk about it.
It was clear I will be getting little help from my family. I laid out my plan and told them that if we don't all pitch in as a family, it would be impossible to make any progress. They didn't promise anything or agree to anything, aside from the fact that we need to be socializing him more. We are planning on having people over at the house more, which I am happy about, but it is not as much progress as I wanted. And at the end my father still said he would have the final say. However as soon as I pay them back for Maverick's cost (we got him from a breeder and I told my parents when I got a job I would reimburse them) he is mine not just in the sense that I participate 90% of his care, but he will be mine in the financial sense. I'm already paying for his food anyway. So I let him know straight-up that it is not his decision to make unless he is contributing as much as I am.
Nobody loves this dog more than I do and I'm not deciding to get rid of him because I am just tired of him or he isn't exciting any more. Its what is best for him.
My plan was to do obedience and then contact a trainer, but I am not sure I could afford a trainer. However it is still an option. But if obedience and the book I am ordering doesn't improve things, I will contact him breeder. Maybe she will have some connections in order to help us find him a good home as either a working dog or an active couple\family.
 
Coalie said:
Thank you very much to everyone for your input. I'm ordering the book 'Control Unleashed' today because it does seem very tailored to my situation!

As well, I have an update:
I had told my mom my plan to do obedience and such and then if that does not yield results then we may need to explore the possibility of re-homing him. She told my dad without consulting me and he said absolutely not. So I decided I needed to get the entire family together to talk about it.
It was clear I will be getting little help from my family. I laid out my plan and told them that if we don't all pitch in as a family, it would be impossible to make any progress. They didn't promise anything or agree to anything, aside from the fact that we need to be socializing him more. We are planning on having people over at the house more, which I am happy about, but it is not as much progress as I wanted. And at the end my father still said he would have the final say. However as soon as I pay them back for Maverick's cost (we got him from a breeder and I told my parents when I got a job I would reimburse them) he is mine not just in the sense that I participate 90% of his care, but he will be mine in the financial sense. I'm already paying for his food anyway. So I let him know straight-up that it is not his decision to make unless he is contributing as much as I am.
Nobody loves this dog more than I do and I'm not deciding to get rid of him because I am just tired of him or he isn't exciting any more. Its what is best for him.
My plan was to do obedience and then contact a trainer, but I am not sure I could afford a trainer. However it is still an option. But if obedience and the book I am ordering doesn't improve things, I will contact him breeder. Maybe she will have some connections in order to help us find him a good home as either a working dog or an active couple\family.
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Did you dad say 'no' to the obedience or the possibility of re-homing? I'd be confused with him saying 'no' to either option. Obedience will help the dog (and by association, all of you), and if it ever came to it, re-homing would also help the dog. Is he just a no on re-homing because of the financial interest he has in your dog?

You've got such a tough situation. You're doing everything you can to make it work. In time hopefully your family will realize this and get behind you and support your efforts. In the meantime, keep on doing what you are doing - researching, training, asking questions.
 
celloyogi said:
Did you dad say 'no' to the obedience or the possibility of re-homing? I'd be confused with him saying 'no' to either option. Obedience will help the dog (and by association, all of you), and if it ever came to it, re-homing would also help the dog. Is he just a no on re-homing because of the financial interest he has in your dog?

You've got such a tough situation. You're doing everything you can to make it work. In time hopefully your family will realize this and get behind you and support your efforts. In the meantime, keep on doing what you are doing - researching, training, asking questions.
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Sorry, I should have been a little clearer there. He said no to getting rid of the dog. And I know its not about the finances. If he had his way I wouldn't even have to pay my parents back for the dog. That was my mom's decision.

The dog won't be going (if at all!) until after I have paid back my parents and exhausted all possible options. He simply loves Maverick and doesn't want to see him go, but it isn't his decision. I want his input but no matter what he says ultimately I have the final say. So him saying 'no' makes sense to me; he doesn't walk the dog, he's never trained the dog. He doesn't have to deal with the nitty-gritty like I always have. To him, Maverick is there to be with him out in the garage and for him to cuttle with when he wants to. But its not his decision to make, and he knows it. *shrugs*
 
This is something we see quite a bit at the dog club. I know you are hopeful with obedience classes and it can't hurt, but be aware that it may not solve the problem. In fact, people with adult dogs with significant behavioural issues we try to weed out and send to a behaviorist first. If you do join a beginner class make sure it is for adult dogs and not puppies.

I'm saddened to hear about your parent's reactions. The most success we see is when parents are actively involved in training the dog - teaching by example. In fact, at our club a person under 16 can't train the dog without a parent involved because by law a minor can't be responsible for a dog.

I would seriously consider using a head collar if you are having trouble walking him. I think they are a must when your only other alternative is to not walk the dog. It will give you more control over a situation, and when he does start reacting turn him around and walk in the other direction so it signals to him you are taking control.

Routine is really important to insecure dogs. Is there a time of day when you aren't doing something with school or friends when you can walk him? Say just before or just after dinner? If you schedule in a particular time of day it may be easier for you and him. You could even organise with friends to take a walk together a few times a week and take the dogs with you. If you can't get out for a walk schedule that time for half an hour of play in the yard or house.

Hopefully there are other young people on the forum who have experience in balancing a dog with school and friends that might chime in.
 
*Caro said:
I would seriously consider using a head collar if you are having trouble walking him. I think they are a must when your only other alternative is to not walk the dog. It will give you more control over a situation, and when he does start reacting turn him around and walk in the other direction so it signals to him you are taking control.
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Very good point! Head collars are a wonderful tool for controlling a nervous dog with impulse control issues. They not only give you more control, they also work with pressure points on the dog's nose that can be calming.

I use a head halter on Toby (I use the gentle leader) and don't know what I'd do without it.

I've used one on my other sheltie Sadie before, she developed a habit of lunging and barking at people. I was able to re-trainer her out of the habit and eventually wean her off of the halter.

Good luck with Control Unleased, its a great book. If you do a search there are several threads on the forums about Control Unleashed and also about controlling reactive, anxious dogs.
 
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