AF: Running or Stopping

[SheltieChe]

Training.

But, seriously... you start by back chaining the behavior. If possible, also start with a training height (lower than competition height) Aframe. (Most of the ones I've seen have chains that allow you to lower the height.)

Have the dog mount the Aframe from the side (use a table against the side of the Aframe to help if necessary) no higher than the top of the contact zone and send the dog to the target. Mark the behavior with a "Yes/click treat" if the dog goes to the target without jumping over the yellow. If they jump, use a NRM and try again.

Work your way up the down side of the Aframe as high as you can. (Either the maximum height you can get with tables or picking the dog up and placing them on the Aframe.)

With the Aframe still low, start adding the entire frame back in before you increase the height.

Slowly progress to a full height Aframe.

It takes time, like everything else, but it can be taught like any other trick.

Sorry for asking a lot of questions- thank you much for answering!
ok, back chaining, got it, what is the criteria? You want full out run down to the end of the frame or jump is allowed at some height? Are you looking for split stride running down? What is the head position? Are you at any point encouraging weight shift? Is the the target loaded? If not are you treating at the target or run to you? Are you c/t? If yes, when?

 

[Sharon]

Training

Sorry for asking a lot of questions- thank you much for answering!
ok, back chaining, got it, what is the criteria? You want full out run down to the end of the frame or jump is allowed at some height? Are you looking for split stride running down? What is the head position? Are you at any point encouraging weight shift? Is the the target loaded? If not are you treating at the target or run to you? Are you c/t? If yes, when?

What does Susan Garett say to do?

 

[Silaria]

Sorry for asking a lot of questions- thank you much for answering!

You are full of questions aren't you. Let's see... one at a time. Keep in mind, this is how I would train it. What I would do for MY dog may not work for another dog. Also, keep in mind that I use a 2o2o for Edan on the Aframe and not a '4 on the floor'. That is something Glen, my husband, uses for CJ because she was offering that naturally so we just reenforced what she was giving us.


what is the criteria?

• Dog with 4 paws flat on the floor at the bottom of the Aframe.
• Nose to the target.
• If it was me, I'd say within a hand's width of the bottom. Dog MUST run through the yellow to the floor
• NO leaping the contact zone.

You want full out run down to the end of the frame or jump is allowed at some height?

• Again, as I said above - NO leaping the contact zone. Consistency in performance is key when training ANY behavior.

Are you looking for split stride running down?

• Personally, I'd rather the dog find it's own natural stride than force a stride on a dog. Edan and CJ both have a natural stride with the Aframe. CJ is actually very fast over the Aframe. I'd only tweak a dog's stride if it was necessary. Honestly, in the classes I've taken, including a Contacts class with Donna Rohaus, there was never discussion of changing a dog's stride.

What is the head position?

• Head down is preferred, at least in my opinion, hence the target to help with that. I'm sure SG probably told you something else.

Are you at any point encouraging weight shift?

1. No

Is the the target loaded?

• For back chaining, yes, the target is loaded; at least at the beginning. As with any training, you slowly start to wean the treats. WHEN you do this is dependent on the dogs progress.

If not are you treating at the target or run to you?

• Even with the target loaded, I would still treat the dog at my heel (right or left depending on which side I'm working on) because I know my dogs would need that click/treat even if the target is loaded when learning a new skill. This would require moving WITH the dog after helping them side mount the Aframe.

Are you c/t? If yes, when?
Didn't I say in my original post to use a verbal marker and treat or click and treat (I believe I wrote it as Yes/click and treat)? I believe I did.

Have the dog mount the Aframe from the side (use a table against the side of the Aframe to help if necessary) no higher than the top of the contact zone and send the dog to the target. Mark the behavior with a "Yes/click treat" if the dog goes to the target without jumping over the yellow. If they jump, use a NRM and try again.

So that means when the dog meets the requirements - and I'm not retyping the requirements I've already typed from above - you click/treat.

Did I pass your test because it sure feels like you are quizzing me to set me up for something.

 

[SheltieChe]

sorry, not quizzing! Honest Thank you very much for answering!!!!
Che has natural landing stride over AF in yellow and has been running down nicely. When you started talking about natural progression of what dog is offering naturally I am very curious on this subject as I would rather keep what he is doing than train something else. Unfortunately I have not figured out how to tell him- yes, do what you do, I like that regarding every criteria he does... thus the questions.
I just started taping myself so yet to figure out but have deep suspicion if I push him to his limits of speed/ arousal he will not maintain criteria of running down the frame/ he does not know I like it and will start jumping off which may lead him to change his landing spot... so I just do not want that downfall to happen.
Back chaining and shaping behavior that dog already does seems like a very attractive idea.
I am very muddled on clicker use, specially with movement behavior. I recently met a gal, who is presently at Karen Pryor academy $5000 course, loved talking to her we almost finished sentences of each other but it did not clear up my understanding of clicking for motion behavior.

 

[Silaria]

Thanks for explaining that ShelieChi. Sounds like you have the same thing we have with CJ; a dog that does a behavior well naturally.

I wish I'd have been in the building with Glen when he was working on CJ's Aframe. Most sessions his class was scheduled on a different night from when I was either teaching or working with Edan so I didn't see a lot of what he did with her. I'm basically trying to think through how I'd train it with a dog that didn't do it naturally.

To this day, Glen takes a few steps after the bottom of the Aframe then gives her a treat to continue to reenforce her running to the bottom. Honestly, I wish Edan's movement on the Aframe was as natural as his sister's. Who knows, it may have been but since Edan's my first agility dog, I may have trained that natural stride out of him for a 2o2o that makes him cautious on the Aframe so he can do his behavior properly.

 

[k9kreationz]

Then you make the choice what you want to train and listen to her because if you took everyone's advice and tried everything they say you will screw your dog up even more.

Well. Just so everyone knows. I'm not asking for training advice. I was asking what you think I should do with wgat access I have to an AF. When I choose a behavior, I'll discuss it with my trainer and come up with a plan.

 

[SheltieChe]

as for SG, contact course will be starting in about 2 weeks, and yes, it is going to be expensive
but the thing with SG courses that some people like and some people don't she teaches you "how to fish" not presenting you with " fish for dinner" ... she pushes people to be their own dog trainers and find their own solutions
OTOH trainers like ST, Dawn Weaver or Daisy Peel will answer your pressing training issues with specific dog but they do expect you to "find what works for you" and for that one needs to know science of what is available to choose from...

 

[Phebe*DD]

We've struggled and struggled with trying to put a stop on Phebe's A-Frame. We actually started out running and then I let someone convince me that it would be easier to manage a stopped contact. After months of frustration, we're going back to running because,
1. it will be easier on her shoulders than repeated stops on the frame,
2. when I let her run it naturally she hits the yellow about 75% of the time, and
3. we have good directionals (right/left) now, so I'm confident that I can manage from behind if I need to.

We just started the retraining this week, so I'm not doing any A-frames in class right now. We're running in the Rocky Mountain Regional this weekend where l'll just let her run her natural stride and only mark leaps from the frame if any occur.

My instructor is confident that we can have it retrained for >90% accuracy in about a month. I asked about using Rachel Sanders' box method and Kim told me that she has never had good success with that method. We're going to use the method that Kim learned from Stacey Peardot Goudy for Kim's young BC, Force. Here's a link to video of Kim training Force using that method. The beginning is teeter work, but watch til the end and you'll see the frame work.

http://vimeo.com/38133413


This is obviously the later stage of the training where the dog is running the entire obstacle. You start by putting the dog on the frame with their front feet in the yellow and releasing them to a toy or food bag about 8 feet out from the frame. I wouldn't use a baited target plate for this because you don't want the dog to self-reward any attempts that miss the hit zone on the ground. You mark and reward hits on the ground between the bottom of the frame and the stride regulator. The distance of the stride regulator from the bottom of the frame is adjusted based on the stride of the dog. For Phebe we set it about 18" out from the frame. Obviously, Force has a much longer stride, so the stride regulator is further out.

 

[corbinam]

But I am wondering why you would train differently for the aframe? I mean a contact is a contact... So if you are doing 2o2o then the criteria is the same, wouldn't it be similar with a running contact as well?

Ha! While I don't disagree with your logic, I find that my criteria differs wildly from obstacle to obstacle! For Bentley, he has a 2o2o on the dogwalk, a hybrid running/2o2o on the a-frame, and a 4-on on the teeter.

Honestly, I think you have to look at your dog (Koji) and think about how he thinks, how he learns, how he runs/strides, etc...to decide what is best for him on the a-frame. Every decision that I have made (at least in the past year or so) in regards to contacts for my two has been for a reason.

 

[k9kreationz]

Honestly, I think you have to look at your dog (Koji) and think about how he thinks, how he learns, how he runs/strides, etc...to decide what is best for him on the a-frame. Every decision that I have made (at least in the past year or so) in regards to contacts for my two has been for a reason.

Well, eventually I'd like to get his DW to a fast release 2o2o. So he drives into position and then I can release as soon as his paws hit the ground. But I know I need to make sure he understands his job before fast releases come around. At this point, I'm just happy he stops.

For the AF, in total honesty, I'm not sure what to do. Could I train a running? Who knows. I think what would make the difference is if I could get Koji up and over like he's supposed to bounce. Maybe I'll work on strengthening his back end a bit and see if that helps him get up and over.

In your opinion, do you think Koji should do a running or a 2o2o/hybrid (probably what Bentley does, I'd check out your vids, but I'm blocked )?