AF: Running or Stopping

[k9kreationz]

But that brings me to the thought that it probably does not matter who is teaching you RC or which method RC one chooses, if one can not "see" the criteria those contacts are going to be unreliable.

Actually, that's not true. Rachel's box method, actually, it's kinda easy to gain an eye, or even an ear for it. Because the second bounce on the down side should be in the zone. There's more specifics to it, but within the day, I was able to see everyone else's dogs hit or miss their contacts.

In the seminar, Koji didn't run, so I never ran with him to watch. But being able to see it (someone else's dog) is just as important.

 

[k9kreationz]

Cheryl, I know you're struggling with this decision, so I will tell you how I feel. This is just my opinion, I am not an expert, nor have I ever put an ADCH (or its equivalent) on a dog.

I would never train a running contact with a dog that does not naturally, smoothly and consistently run a contact on his own, without constant access to a world caliber trainer.

Well, I kinda have access. Rachel is only 230 miles away and I know she'll do video evaluations with feedback. Even she told me to do all the flatwork then give her a call. So, I figure, I can work on a handful of things until I'm to the point of needing her.

I've been told by a handful of top trainers that Koji has a nice AF RC contact. Even when I tell them he blows it by jumping early. They just tell me he needs some work, but his RC is very nice and almost ideal. No clue what's nice about it, LOL. I think with some work of him focusing on the ground, more than me, it'll come. And I have a few ideas that may work to help him.

 

[Toffee's Mom]

well, whatever you do as long as you have clear criteria, I am sure you will do more than excellent

I think having trialed or not makes a difference as it does add experience when it lets you learn what did and what didn't work in the past with your dog. Putting in the time will work with either decision, Cheryl! Can't wait to see what Koji is gonna do

 

[3Stars]

I would never train a running contact with a dog that does not naturally, smoothly and consistently run a contact on his own, without constant access to a world caliber trainer.

Honestly, so far running contacts aren't as hard as I thought they would be - I'm amazed by Starr's progress. I started a second dog tonight - he's never done a running contact in his life (4 years old), but had picked up the concept of the stride regulator within 5 minutes. I'd say the biggest issue is whether you have (very) regular access to an A-frame. If I was just doing classes once a week, I probably wouldn't be doing a running contact, but having access to an agility yard makes it easier. The other nice thing about running contacts is that I don't have a dog with huge "drive" - when he slows down for a 2o2o, it was taking him a while to get going again. The running contact allows him to just keep going, which is a type of reward for him.

Having a world class trainer would be nice (depending on the price of that trainer...I can't afford $5000 for a running contacts class!), but there's a lot to be said for problem solving, researching, and experimenting on your own. Plus it's fun to puzzle over a problem, try different angles, and finally get it right!

 

[corbinam]

Honestly, so far running contacts aren't as hard as I thought they would be - I'm amazed by Starr's progress. I started a second dog tonight - he's never done a running contact in his life (4 years old), but had picked up the concept of the stride regulator within 5 minutes. I'd say the biggest issue is whether you have (very) regular access to an A-frame. If I was just doing classes once a week, I probably wouldn't be doing a running contact, but having access to an agility yard makes it easier. The other nice thing about running contacts is that I don't have a dog with huge "drive" - when he slows down for a 2o2o, it was taking him a while to get going again. The running contact allows him to just keep going, which is a type of reward for him.

Having a world class trainer would be nice (depending on the price of that trainer...I can't afford $5000 for a running contacts class!), but there's a lot to be said for problem solving, researching, and experimenting on your own. Plus it's fun to puzzle over a problem, try different angles, and finally get it right!

That's great that Starr is doing so well. I'm glad that it is working for you.

I wasn't trying to say that it couldn't be done (tons of people do it all the time!) I just know it's not for me. We taught Bentley RC and definitely messed him up. He had a natural stride, but then lost it when he got excited (a while into trialing he gained a ton of confidence). I still haven't quite figured out how to fix it, and we had many seminars with great trainers who set up training plans for us (that we followed very closely--with constant access to contact equipment). I don't have that "eye" and we eventually just went back to 2o2o.

Because of what a pain it was, and how Bentley never could get it, I am very, very hesitant to try it with another dog. We toyed with the idea of teaching Lexi RC, and were told by a good trainer that she's a good candidate, we would just have to "play with it"--but I don't believe that I have the agility knowledge to "play with it" and know what to look for and when to tweak an approach.

 

[HopeShelties]

I do think the aframe is the easier of the two contacts to train a running on. It can be even easier to train if you can get the dog to leap the apex as it can often put them further down the down side and cause them to stride into the yellow.
I have retrained Caleb, who was the worst aframe jumper/bailer, and he now runs correctly about 90% of the time. He will never be a speed demon, and is the only one I can't get to leap. He also took a lot of tweaking on my part to correct his striding to make him hit the yellow.
I think the deciding factor should be how committed you are, and how often you have access to an aframe. Not having access to one often enough is a huge disadvantage with running contacts, and they do require a lot more work and maintenance to get and keep them. If you have the time and access, give it a try. If you only have occasional access to an aframe or lack of time then I would choose the 2o2o.
It really was easy when all I had were 12" dogs. They all hit the yellow naturally regardless of speed. The real challenge has been my 16" dogs. Caleb at 15.25 and then Ember with a huge stride at 16" and now Roxas and Blaze. Blaze strides into the yellow on his own right now, though I will be training a true running regardless for contact independence and to insure it sticks. Roxas will be the challenge of the two... Jumps before the yellow. I will be correcting his striding. Sp far, I haven't failed in being able to get a running. The real challenge will come with the BC and Icelandic Sheepdog... Though I think so long as I can get the bc to leap the apex I can make a dog who is going to land that far down the down side go into the yellow.

 

[Sharon]

A Frame

First, before things get personal (and maybe they weren't going to, but I'm going to jump on anyways), let's please remember to be respectful of all viewpoints and training methods. Not everyone here is at the same skill level, and I think we are all aware of that and should be respectful of ideas and opinions regardless.

Good thinking but it was a question and my point is what works in training may not translate into consistent performance in trials.We are all entitled to our"OPINONS".

 

[ClantyreSheltie]

As I said before, I have never actually trained contacts. That has only bit me once, so so far it's working for me.

With that said...

I now have a dog who is fast. She got her first private lesson this week, and she is fast. I knew this all along, given how fast her sister is (won the speed jumping at the USDAA Regional). I figured if I waited until she was 4 to start, maybe she would slow down. I was wrong. Anyway, I now will actually have to train a contact, and I had this same decision to make.

I know that her super fast littermate was trained a running contact, and now refuses any obstacle where she has to stop. Both the teeter and table are issues, which is why she only has two QQ's, despite the 37 jumpers Q's and almost 900 MACH points. Her owner is going to try to now re-train a stop on the dog walk, to see if that changes her outlook any.

Given that information, when my instructor asked running or stop? I quickly said STOP!!! I am not fast enough to deal with a running contact on this dog, and given the family history... So we started two on two off training this week.

 

[k9kreationz]

well, whatever you do as long as you have clear criteria, I am sure you will do more than excellent

I think having trialed or not makes a difference as it does add experience when it lets you learn what did and what didn't work in the past with your dog. Putting in the time will work with either decision, Cheryl! Can't wait to see what Koji is gonna do

I agree. Clear criteria. I guess while I work on the basics and strengthening his back end and core, I should start writing up a training plan. I need to do some research though. lol.

I can't wait to see what Koji does either. Oh wait, I'm supposed to decide, aren't i? hehehe.

 

[k9kreationz]

Honestly, so far running contacts aren't as hard as I thought they would be - I'm amazed by Starr's progress. I started a second dog tonight - he's never done a running contact in his life (4 years old), but had picked up the concept of the stride regulator within 5 minutes. I'd say the biggest issue is whether you have (very) regular access to an A-frame. If I was just doing classes once a week, I probably wouldn't be doing a running contact, but having access to an agility yard makes it easier. The other nice thing about running contacts is that I don't have a dog with huge "drive" - when he slows down for a 2o2o, it was taking him a while to get going again. The running contact allows him to just keep going, which is a type of reward for him.

Having a world class trainer would be nice (depending on the price of that trainer...I can't afford $5000 for a running contacts class!), but there's a lot to be said for problem solving, researching, and experimenting on your own. Plus it's fun to puzzle over a problem, try different angles, and finally get it right!

Oh that is awesome. I hear ya on the $5k class. For me, it'd be the cost of driving and time that is the worst. I will have access to an AF 2x a week and then during class (just short stints and obviously when running). It's not a ton, but we'll see.

I tried stride regulators, they didn't really work with Koji. He kept adjusting his stride, to jump off early. What a ding dong! Even my trainer said that was strange and most dogs won't do that.

I think running is a good choice for you, esp with a dog that doesn't have too much drive. I know also stopping them brings their drive down, because they find it, oh what is the word, I want to say discouraging. Koji doesn't have that issue, but yet I'm already struggling to stop him on his DW. If he's not in a calm state of mind, I know he'll blow his DW. It's one reason I'm going with a running.

Now, I just need to think of a good way to get Koji to always drive down to the end. Versus hopping off because I'm ahead of him. I say I should just put a layer of food on the ground. That'll do it. LOL.