An Update on Toby

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Toby and Bailey must be related.

This is my issue with Bailey as well. As soon as I solve one barking problem, she finds something new to bark at. It is very disheartening.

And I know it's not an exercise issue because she has barking fits on days when she gets more than enough exercise. I even had my vet test her thyroid and run a blood test to make sure it's not a health issue.

I'm very worried about how she will be in an apartment.
 
Toby and Bailey must be related.

This is my issue with Bailey as well. As soon as I solve one barking problem, she finds something new to bark at. It is very disheartening.

And I know it's not an exercise issue because she has barking fits on days when she gets more than enough exercise. I even had my vet test her thyroid and run a blood test to make sure it's not a health issue.

I'm very worried about how she will be in an apartment.

Yes they sound very similar. On Saturday I took my three hiking. All came back completely exhausted but I eventually had to crate Toby because of his barking. I wasn't feeling well and he was driving me crazy.

I don't worry about him as much when I'm not there. Toby is excellent when I'm away, it appears he just sleeps in his crate, even with the door open. If there's going to be a thunderstorm I put his thundershirt on him and crate him. Ginny on the other hand is very anxious when I leave, but she's much better when she's crated and wearing her thundershirt. Otherwise she pees either in her crate or on the floor.

I assume then that Baily barks in her crate too then? YOu could try crating her with her thundershirt on and using rescue remedy. You could just put a few drops of the RR on her nose.

I also use put on an relaxation cd when I'm away, which also seemed to help. Now I just leave the radio on for them.
 
I think it is extremely difficult if your dog has a history of rehearsed behavior. You have been making terrific progress with Toby. I do not know if I ever be able to get such a task on my shoulders, I have made enough of my own mistakes with Che and Leo training, let alone to retrain other people's poor choices. Sounds like you are on right path and just need more consistency and yeah, some days it is one step forward and two steps backwards.
If you happen to have Crate Games DVD I would suggest using it and following to the letter. It is pretty much foundation of all SG training and it has built in control and distraction games. It might provide Toby with choices he does not know he has.

No, I don't have the crate games DVD but I have inadvertently taught them some crate games. They all go to their crates when I tell them crate. They run to their crates and sit inside waiting for their rewards and they know how wait inside, even when the door is opened.

Did you mention the crate games as a form of impulse control? Toby otherwise has very good impulse control. He waits to be let out of his crate, he waits till he's told he can eat his dinner and he knows 'leave it' and drop it. I worked with him extensively not to pick things up that are dropped (with or without the leave it command) since I had hoped I could train him as a therapy dog. The impulse control training just doesn't carry over when he's panic stricken.
 
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I assume then that Baily barks in her crate too then? YOu could try crating her with her thundershirt on and using rescue remedy. You could just put a few drops of the RR on her nose.

Bailey is rarely crated when I'm home, so I don't know if she barks in it. I only crate her right before I leave for work and my parents let her out 2 hours later. She doesn't like it when I walk away from the crate or if I walk near the crate when she's in it. She'll bark at me.

I don't know how she is in the crate when I'm not home. I think she is fine in the crate, but I assume she will bark if she hears something. I will set up a webcam when I leave for work on Monday, so I'll find out soon.

The thundershirt doesn't seem to work for Bailey. I've never noticed a difference in her behavior or barking.
 
This is just a thought…. You know how when you have a bad day at work, you don’t yell at the whatever the problem is you just suck it up because certain behavior just isn’t appropriate in the work place? Then you come home and fly off the handle at some little thing that usually didn’t bother you or you were at least able to live with. Could it be and again I’m basing this on my experience with Louie… When Louie came to live with us I was under the belief that all dogs needed to be walked, that a tired dog was a good dog, so we walked him daily with the others. It was hard, he barked spinned, leapt toward people and dogs and when dogs which were in the house who barked at him, he was wild, his teeth showing looking like he would bite you, we even put a muzzle on him so people we met would feel safer. In between seeing people he happily bounced along and we thought overall he “liked” his walk. We tried the treat or turn around and walk away and all the normal things people tell you to desensitize your dog, it just didn’t work and I was becoming more frustrated which I’m sure went right down the leash to him. I was a part of another group for reactive dogs and one of the things they always said was that it isn’t good or healthy for that matter to allow your dog to become so upset, that you should just quit making them do what is so upsetting to them, allow them to rest and regroup, also the good things that get them over excited in a good way too. Not all dogs but those who like Louie and it sounds like maybe Toby, those that are over the top. I know I’m not explaining this right but I did just discontinue Louie’s walks, I just quit taking him along and I was amazed that he didn’t mind. When I quit the walks I was encouraged that he seemed calmer in the house, not good mind you but better and it occurred to me to start trying to not let other things that he didn’t like happen so we started eliminating doing those things he didn’t like. We couldn’t get them all of course but those we could we did. He became a different dog. Months down the road we offered him the option to go for a walk early in the morning on weekends while we knew most people wouldn’t be out and sometimes he would want to go and other times he would turn and walk away. Stress plays a big part in this whole thing, not just his stress but ours too because they pick up on that. Anyway I was wondering if it is possible that Toby may be sucking it up during his walks because he has learned what is appropriate behavior on them but when he gets home the stress is being let out on things that he was previously able to handle? That is why it seems he is getting new behaviors. These dogs are different than “normal” dogs and the normal training just doesn’t work, the goal has to be less stress, less stress, less stress whatever you have to do to make that happen. They aren’t easy dogs especially when there are other dogs too. I worked way too long on the normal training techniques, I wish I had known about the less stress earlier because life was not fun for probably the first year. It can and does become better, much better. My heart goes out to you I know how difficult this is.
 
No, you explained yourself perfectly and I really appreciate all the time and thought you put into your response. :smile2:

When I work with Toby during obedience or on walks, I've tried not to teach him what the wrong behaviors are, so to speak. Instead I taught him the look command and treated him for looking. This way when something scared him he looked at me for guidance/reassure instead of reacting. Or if that didn't work I threw a treat on the ground. I worked really hard on Toby's impulse control so trying not to get the treat and instead looking at me (and getting a treat and praise) really helped over time.

I also try to never walk him when I was in a bad mood or feeling particularly frustrated with him, because I don't want to set him back. I'm definitely not perfect so I'm sure there are times when I'm tense or anticipating a reaction from him, but most often he reacts when I'm not expecting him to. He usually surprises me, so I think more often than not I'm not the cause.

I would give not walking him a try, except that he got less walks during the winter because of bad weather and his behavior worsened. Toby is a very active dog and he can't get the exercise he needs in our small yard.

Now that you mention it, maybe he's having a relapse because he's not getting enough exercise right now. I've been unwell and haven't walked him in several days....definitely food for thought.
 
Btw Char, how old was Louie when you got him? Just curious.

Toby just turned 2 in March. That's part of the reason why I'm not ready to give up on his training and have held off on medicating him. He's still very young.
 
Char, I am by no means an expert on dogs but from your description I am seeing that you let your dogs drive the bus and tell you whats what. And that is ok because it was your choice. I do not know what will be my choice if I face dog with that many problems. Probably lots of $$$ for my dog's behaviorist LOL
anyway this is link I wanted to share, go down under read more about Terra story, I know this dog and its owner.
http://www.foryourk9.com/
 
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Char, I am by no means an expert on dogs but from your description I am seeing that you let your dogs drive the bus and tell you whats what. And that is ok because it was your choice. I do not know what will be my choice if I face dog with that many problems. Probably lots of $$$ for my dog's behaviorist LOL
anyway this is link I wanted to share, go down under read more about Terra story, I know this dog and its owner.
http://www.foryourk9.com/


Thanks for the link. That dog sounds a lot like Toby, only Toby thankfully doesn't get that aggressive. He barks like a fool and tricks people into thinking he might be mean (which is great with people I dislike :wink2:) but he's extremely gentle, all noise and no bite.
 
Melissa, I don’t really know how old Louie was, he was found wandering the streets and by the time he got to rescue he was very sick with pancreatitis and pneumonia, he came to live with us after his recovery. I’m sure he had to put up with a lot of unpleasant things beyond his control, during his long hospitalization. The rescue said he was seven the hospital said he was eight and my vet thought maybe older, but he was so active, I think he was on the lower end. When you adopt a dog especially an older one you have no idea what kind of life and trials they endured before you get them, at least it was so in Louie’s case.

SheltieChe, If you mean I let Louie, (not all my dogs, just him) “drive the bus” because I cared enough to listen to him and not force him into things he wasn’t able to handle, then your right I am guilty as charged. I felt that was not fair to a dog that was afraid of everything to face all those fears making him miserable. He was telling me, this is too much and I listened. I loved him too much to do that to him, being a shy person myself I know it is not easy and makes me more stressed when I am forced to do something I am not comfortable with. I do better if I can face it in my own time. I rescued him because I wanted to give him a good life, not make his life miserable. I was a big enough person to back off and allow him to distress and in doing so he was able to become the loving, sweet, happy dog he was meant to be. What worked for him may not work for others, it was just suggestion, if all else fails it might be worth considering. It is well known that stress is hard on the immune system; I only hope that because I went the traditional route at first wasn’t the cause of his cancer that took this special boy from me.
 
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