An Update on Toby

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Mother Know's Best

I inherited a lot of health related issues from my mother, who also suffered from panic attacks, anxiety and agoraphobia in the past. Luckily, I didn't inherit the panic or anxiety from her.

I was talking to my Mom last night about Toby and his issues last night, and how its always one step forward, two steps back with him. She told me that I have to continue being patient with him and give him more time to come around, that this type of emotional issue can take a very long time to get better.

She feels that seven months is far to short a time to expect more improvement than he's already made and that it may be too soon to go the medication route. Se encouraged me to speak to my vet about it some more.

So I've been told. :lol:

I just want to be clear that even though his carrying on is definitely annoying, I'm most concerned with Toby's well being.

He is such a sweet and gentle soul and above all else I HATE seeing him so anxious. I wish I could speak to him and make him understand that the world isn't such a scary place and that he's safe. If I thought eliminating all scary things from his life would benefit him, then I'd to it in a second. After all, its not exactly difficult greasing a squeaky door. :o

Still working on the issues with the oven door but he's much less panicky since the construction moved further down the street and he's not hearing dump trucks going by our house every day.

I took my pack for a really good walk (speed walking for an hour) and really tired them out. Toby hadn't been out much in the past week because I've been unwell and even in that short time he'd slipped a bit. He shied away from garbage cans, street lights, parking meters, flags and a scary blue awning, but he still did amazing though, compared to how he used to be on walks. He spun around once when a motorcycle got him overly excited and barked at a person who startled all of us. But we were in a VERY busy area the majority of the time with lots of noise, cars and people so I was completely happy with his behavior.
 
You are such a good and dedicated Sheltie mom! Your devotion to Toby's well-being in light of your own health issues is remarkable, and I salute you....
 
Mel,
I have signed Leo for Leash reactive class which has some really "sick" dogs in it. New trick I have learned and I do not know if you could implement it because Leo is confident dog and has not shown separation anxiety whatsoever. I tethered Leo to a post and other dogs where walking at distance. Every time Leo would go off and start barking at them I step behind Leo out of view, if it does not work I start walking away. The moment Leo realized that mama is gone he stopped paying any attention to other dogs and turned towards me which I heavily reinforced. Worked pretty good for us.
 
SheltieChe said:
Mel,
I have signed Leo for Leash reactive class which has some really "sick" dogs in it. New trick I have learned and I do not know if you could implement it because Leo is confident dog and has not shown separation anxiety whatsoever. I tethered Leo to a post and other dogs where walking at distance. Every time Leo would go off and start barking at them I step behind Leo out of view, if it does not work I start walking away. The moment Leo realized that mama is gone he stopped paying any attention to other dogs and turned towards me which I heavily reinforced. Worked pretty good for us.
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Is the point to look as though you're ignoring the unwanted behavior? I saw my trainer do something similar with a reactive dog in our class, but again, this was a more confident dog. I'm not sure whether it would be good for Toby, who is anything but a confident dog on walks. I'm also not sure how I would do this in the real world.
 
Found a GREAT blog!

I'm really excited, I accidentally came across this EXCELLENT blog yesterday. I'm actually alternating between being really excited and wanting to cry, because this person is dealing with a dog EXACTLY like Toby.

She is able to explain so many of Toby's behaviors that I've failed to put into words and explained some of them that I've been unable to understand.

She goes at length into dog behavior, why dogs do what they do, positive training techniques, helpful seminars, books, dvd's, etc. and even various natural remedies to try for anxiety. So many of the things she's talked about I've been doing or been told to do on this forum, so it was such a relief to know I'm on the right tract.

I haven't read all the way through yet but my understanding is that she did eventually elect to medicate her dog, but only after years of positive training and exhausting all other options.

I've only been training Toby for seven months so this gives me hope that Toby has lots of room for improvement and that I'm not merely torturing him pointlessly to try and turn him into a dog that he'll never be.

Here is the link, I highly recommend it to anyone who has a reactive dog. I'm also going to start a new thread with this link.

http://reactivechampion.blogspot.co...d-max=2010-01-01T00:00:00-06:00&max-results=8
 
OntarioSheltie said:
Is the point to look as though you're ignoring the unwanted behavior? I saw my trainer do something similar with a reactive dog in our class, but again, this was a more confident dog. I'm not sure whether it would be good for Toby, who is anything but a confident dog on walks. I'm also not sure how I would do this in the real world.
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what I did was positive punishment and yes, I felt I earned the right to do that. I took my presence out of the picture when Leo was lunging and barking. It made him sit up and take a notice. He did not like it. It has been proven that dogs that have a choice are happier because there is additional release of dopamine when dog allowed to make choices. It is important to act on it at the moment of choice made i.e. if the dog runs to greet other dog when you told him to sit you need to act on it when dog is leaving not when dog is returning. Something like checkers. He made decision to bark. I countered it by leaving the view, did not leave very far, just stepped behind him couple of steps. He did not like it sat up and took notice, turned toward me. I heavily reinforced good choice.
I will see how it works in class but I will do it in real life by staging. I will sit in hallway of our training facility, tether him to a leg of the table and step behind the screen if he does not behave. Should not take more than couple of times to get the message across. Then I go somewhere else and use new habitat. One step at a time.
As blogger you found mentioned there are different reasons for dogs reactivity. We were able to pinpoint Leo's being leash reactive to unfamiliar dogs who "give him an eye". It is like " are you giving me an eye? I show you what for... I am tough I am tough..."
Leo goes to dog parks and daycare with no problems, multiple classes and has no anxiety problems, total sweetheart at home. He is a teen with poor impulse control. He also has high auditory and motion sensitivity but that is different issue and closely related to him having very strong herding background.
 
SheltieChe said:
what I did was positive punishment and yes, I felt I earned the right to do that. I took my presence out of the picture when Leo was lunging and barking. It made him sit up and take a notice. He did not like it. It has been proven that dogs that have a choice are happier because there is additional release of dopamine when dog allowed to make choices. It is important to act on it at the moment of choice made i.e. if the dog runs to greet other dog when you told him to sit you need to act on it when dog is leaving not when dog is returning. Something like checkers. He made decision to bark. I countered it by leaving the view, did not leave very far, just stepped behind him couple of steps. He did not like it sat up and took notice, turned toward me. I heavily reinforced good choice.
I will see how it works in class but I will do it in real life by staging. I will sit in hallway of our training facility, tether him to a leg of the table and step behind the screen if he does not behave. Should not take more than couple of times to get the message across. Then I go somewhere else and use new habitat. One step at a time.
As blogger you found mentioned there are different reasons for dogs reactivity. We were able to pinpoint Leo's being leash reactive to unfamiliar dogs who "give him an eye". It is like " are you giving me an eye? I show you what for... I am tough I am tough..."
Leo goes to dog parks and daycare with no problems, multiple classes and has no anxiety problems, total sweetheart at home. He is a teen with poor impulse control. He also has high auditory and motion sensitivity but that is different issue and closely related to him having very strong herding background.
Click to expand...

It was really interesting watching my trainer do the tethering thing with a dog in our class. This particular dog had had a bad experience at a dog park with both a dog and a person, so he was aggressive with both. This dog was also very confident and pushy, I did not envy his owner. The dog was constantly throwing little tantrums to try and control his owner, in addition to lunging at anything that moved. It was interesting watching him think things through and how quickly he caught on to the fact that his owner ignored him every time he acted up.

I don't think it would work for Toby though. He's VERY willing to please and not pushy at all, just anxious. I think me tying him up and leaving him would be too severe for him, even when he's displaying learned behavior and isn't feeling as anxious.

I've made an appointment for a private lesson with my trainer, so I'll see what she thinks I should be doing, I honestly don't know.
 
Melissa-
I feel your pain. It literally took us 4 years to get Vinca to be a good house dog. It was all about being patient and persistant. She was not allowed to call the shots, either. Right now, the only thing we deal with Vinca, is if we are in a new building, and men come up to pet her. She will shy away. In that case, she calls the shots and determines if she is ready to say hi.

You are a great mom, and I give you a lot of credit. You are making great progress and 7 months is not a lot of time. I know it seems like it, but he will come around. How old is he again? Vinca turned a corner when she turned 5. She just matured completely at that point.
 
danisgoat said:
Melissa-
I feel your pain. It literally took us 4 years to get Vinca to be a good house dog. It was all about being patient and persistant. She was not allowed to call the shots, either. Right now, the only thing we deal with Vinca, is if we are in a new building, and men come up to pet her. She will shy away. In that case, she calls the shots and determines if she is ready to say hi.

You are a great mom, and I give you a lot of credit. You are making great progress and 7 months is not a lot of time. I know it seems like it, but he will come around. How old is he again? Vinca turned a corner when she turned 5. She just matured completely at that point.
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Thanks, I appreciate that. I wanted a dog I could train but Toby is definitely more than I bargained for.

My frustration is that despite the amazing progress he's made, he is still extremely anxious, his outbursts are just better than they were. I'm going to keep training him to help him with his impulse control issues but my gut feeling is that this isn't something that will ever be 'fixed.'

I'd stopped bringing treats with me on walks but I started again yesterday. It was then that I realized that on walks his issues are still 100% anxiety and not just the desire to chase things. When I gave him kibbles he was taking my fingers off, which is something he does when he's highly stressed. He's usually extremely gentle.

At home he definitely has anxiety (I determined the noise the oven door makes is anxiety and not just learned behavior), but that he also exhibits learned behavior too (Purposely barking then running to me for praise).

Looking forward to meeting with the trainer and getting some advice.

I also borrowed Crate games from her and will be borrowing the Control Unleashed series from her next week.
 
I also forgot to mention, I'm trying him on a new supplement called l-theonine, which is an amino acid found in green tea and is supposed to be great for anxiety in dogs. Yesterday was Toby's first full day on it and he definitely seemed calmer (though still stressed) and he seemed more stressed when its effects started to wear off, but I don't know if it was a coincidence or not.

I'm giving it to him daily.
 
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