Bone/Fine Bone

[JessicaR]

I have a question for everybody. Do you think that the show dogs now a days have too much bone? I was reading the September addition of the Global Sheltie magazine yesterday. I found the artical by Felicity Rogers (UK) interesting. The aritcal was from when she judged the Lexington kennel club show in 1960. Granted I am sure the dogs have changed in looks since the 60's, but the same thing is talked about in Sheltie talk. She says the American dogs are a good deal heavier built with more bone than the Uk shelties. Their standard says shelties should be lithe and active, where as the AKC standard says sturdy.

Which do you feel is more correct for the sheltie? Personally I think that shelties are becoming to heavy. If you look at other herding breeds (I am talking about working lines not show lines) such as the bc's and aussie's, they are thin and light in bone. I have also noticed in my own shelties that the 2 that have more bone are slower, dont turn as quick, and tend to give up first, Belle on the other hand is finer in bone and runs circles around the other shelties and even outruns our boxer. She can go for hours without getting tired.

 

[corbinam]

Thanks for all the info. everyone! I think I have a hard time seeing "bone" under the fluffiness. The pictures helped a lot.

Jessica, that is an interesting question. I look forward to hearing what others think.

 

[Narmowen]

I have a question for everybody. Do you think that the show dogs now a days have too much bone? I was reading the September addition of the Global Sheltie magazine yesterday. I found the artical by Felicity Rogers (UK) interesting. The aritcal was from when she judged the Lexington kennel club show in 1960. Granted I am sure the dogs have changed in looks since the 60's, but the same thing is talked about in Sheltie talk. She says the American dogs are a good deal heavier built with more bone than the Uk shelties. Their standard says shelties should be lithe and active, where as the AKC standard says sturdy.

Which do you feel is more correct for the sheltie? Personally I think that shelties are becoming to heavy. If you look at other herding breeds (I am talking about working lines not show lines) such as the bc's and aussie's, they are thin and light in bone. I have also noticed in my own shelties that the 2 that have more bone are slower, dont turn as quick, and tend to give up first, Belle on the other hand is finer in bone and runs circles around the other shelties and even outruns our boxer. She can go for hours without getting tired.

I agree. If you look at our Shelties (American show shelties in general), they are MUCH heavier, in bone and coat, than the Sheltie in England.

 

[missjenneygirl]

Several years ago, I'm going say maybe more then 5 years, Tom Coen went to the UK for a international sheltie conference. The topic of great concern was the difference between the American sheltie and the UK (and I'm guessing here, European) sheltie. Should they be two different dogs, as in the English Cocker and the American Cocker? At that time, I think a lot of information and exchange of ideas went on. There was an article in the Sheltie Pacesetter about the conference. I know, when our dog qualified and was invited to Crufts, we considered it, and thought it would be great fun to show our dog. After speaking with Nick and Joel, who had done the trip with "Katherine", we saw the light, that our girl would look way overdone, and it would be for naught.
Breeder Judge Jean Simmons has imported UK shelties several times to bring into her line.
Styles within the breed are everywhere, even from East Coast to West Coast, and Canada too.

 

[BarbV]

I hope this helps.

Gorgeous picture!

 

[BarbV]

This is a fascinating thread!

I wish I could contribute knowledgeably, but I'm neither a shower or a breeder, I only have my own personal opinion.

First off, I would not like to see a separation of European Shelties and American Shelties as they did with the cockers. I think it just dilutes the breed, and just opens the door for more future deviations...eg. like the Mini-Sheltie would be next?

Second, I think the American strain has gone for too much bone-in. More and more, I think we are finding oversized Shelties that approach Collie size. And I believe the European's have gone the opposite direction and prize "finesse" - neither are particularly suited for what the breed was intended for in the first place as a working dog.

Personally, I would like to find the balance between the two.

My tuppence worth, for what it is worth!

 

[Narmowen]

Several years ago, I'm going say maybe more then 5 years, Tom Coen went to the UK for a international sheltie conference. The topic of great concern was the difference between the American sheltie and the UK (and I'm guessing here, European) sheltie. Should they be two different dogs, as in the English Cocker and the American Cocker? At that time, I think a lot of information and exchange of ideas went on. There was an article in the Sheltie Pacesetter about the conference. I know, when our dog qualified and was invited to Crufts, we considered it, and thought it would be great fun to show our dog. After speaking with Nick and Joel, who had done the trip with "Katherine", we saw the light, that our girl would look way overdone, and it would be for naught.
Breeder Judge Jean Simmons has imported UK shelties several times to bring into her line.
Styles within the breed are everywhere, even from East Coast to West Coast, and Canada too.

So is that a "I think that American shelties are becoming too heavy boned" or "I think that they're fine"?

This is a fascinating thread!

I wish I could contribute knowledgeably, but I'm neither a shower or a breeder, I only have my own personal opinion.

First off, I would not like to see a separation of European Shelties and American Shelties as they did with the cockers. I think it just dilutes the breed, and just opens the door for more future deviations...eg. like the Mini-Sheltie would be next?

Second, I think the American strain has gone for too much bone-in. More and more, I think we are finding oversized Shelties that approach Collie size. And I believe the European's have gone the opposite direction and prize "finesse" - neither are particularly suited for what the breed was intended for in the first place as a working dog.

Personally, I would like to find the balance between the two.

My tuppence worth, for what it is worth!

I agree, Barb! I do NOT want to see them as two separate breeds. Because of that reason, Luke's "girlfriend" (being purchased next year, and bred two years after that) is going to be a "dainty", very girly girl, much like his sister (Sally), who I think, except for her foxy head (her muzzle is a bit too pointed for me), has beautiful bone.

For me, instead of Cockers, it's more comparable to German Shepherds from Germany vs America. Or Collies from England vs American rough collies. ( http://www.collienet.com/breeders/Pelido_Rough_Collies.htm vs http://www.wyndlaircollies.com/wyndlair_collies.cfm?c=5 and http://www.fransangsd.com/ vs *okay, UK, but the body style is completely different* http://www.shotaan.co.uk/ )

ETA: keep in mind that these are what Shelties began like:

http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/SheltieHistory.html More of a BC look than a Collie look, at least to me.

http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Imports/WeeLaird.html

http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Imports/Grethe.html

http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Imports/Pan.html

 

[Justicemom]

As a person who does performance I do think alot of our shelties have too much bone. Agility and speed does decrease when the body mass increases.

But fine bone alone does not make a dog able to run long and hard. Proper angulation and comformation are just as improtant. So a heavy bone dog with proper conformation could outrun and outlast a fine bone dog with a straight shoudler, short forearm and a short neck. They all matter.

I prefer a moderate amount of bone. All things being equal I would lean towards a lighter dog. That is my perference. I also prefer my shelties around 14in. Were alot of people do not.

 

[JessicaR]

I also agree I would hate to see shelties split into 2 different breeds! And i also like my shelties around 14 inches, too bad only one of them is that size the others are 15 or more. I think not only are they starting to get too heavy but too tall as well.

 

[missjenneygirl]

So is that a "I think that American shelties are becoming too heavy boned" or "I think that they're fine"?


Well, I'll put it this way. With the winning our breeding program has seen under the likes of Breeder Judge Linda More, Best Of Opposite Sex ASSA National, under Breeder Judge Charlotte McGowen, Best of Breeds and Group 1's, under Breeder Judge Sandy McIntosh-Feret, BISS Best of Breed. Best of Breed under Breeder Judge Tom Coen, 2 ASSA National Award of Merits under Breeder Judges Melanie Williams, and Larry Brunner, Specialty Best of Winners and Best of Breed over specials, Breeder Judge Roderick Thompson. Multiple Specialty WD, WB, BOW, Best in Sweeps. Two National Futurity class winners. Multiple Group 1's. Two Westminster Kennel Club, Best of Opposite Sex Awards. And I only have 8 dogs.

"I think they're fine".