Breeding for high drive

Border Collies have been interesting for me to watch. I come from a more "working" Border Collie mentality, just because that's what I have more exposure to. Those dogs work all day, then lay down by your feet when it's time to not work. They aren't frantic, they don't spin, whine, or any other frantic like behavior.

I see so many that are just so over the top and the handlers just write off the bad behavior, but that's not what a Border Collie should be. My mother has a young border collie, a mix of barbie collie and ISDS import (Wales). She's great on sheep, if a bit sticky, and loves agility, but then will wrap herself around a chair and sleep on your feet all day. Even people that don't like BC's would have this dog in a hot minute. Would I touch one bred simply for agility? NO.
 
I believe you. That makes total sense. Plus my friend's dog isn't ISDS/working line at all. She got her actually from breeder who breeds mainly for shows. But whole litter is strange. I've seen brother of her bitch and he's pleasant dog, seems like good dog for life, but he's total opposite of that bitch - he's timid with very low drive. I wouldn't believe they're from the same litter if they didn't tell us. So yea, I think owner might be partly blamed for her dog's frantic behavior (owner is very ambitious) and then as I said whole litter was probably messed up. Anyway, I definitely believe there are good working border collies out there that know when to lay down and rest.
 
I have seen some seriously iffy show bred border collies, often bred for colour over temperament. I would go working lines always. Also show lines here are a lot stockier than the working lines. Brother may have a working collie next year which I will puppy sit and probably steal for agility, so I will let you know how we get on! (He is getting it to work his sheep).
 
SheltieChe said:
However there is no going around that it takes more work for smaller frame dog to run as fast as bigger BC. When I look at Leo stride, it takes 3 of his to come up to one of Che´s, who is ratehr BC size:biggrin2:
Also the problem seen by Chiro/ PT people is a widespread one, not localized to specific area, I am hearing it from many people.
And now on the agility playground coming all those border staffies and border jacks...
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On your first point, I have never heard that simply running fast causes dogs to break down faster. If the dog is structurally sound, and well conditioned, it shouldn't have much trouble regardless of the speed it runs.

Second, yes, it is widespread. That is because over every area you are going to find dogs with physical issues that are causing them to break down faster.

On the last one, I don't think you want to get me started on the breeding of border staffies, border jacks, border whippets.... etc etc. I am not a fan of creating mixed breeds to produce agility dogs. My biggest problems with it are these:
That there is no consistency. It can be hard enough to predict what you get when breeding purebreds. When you take two dogs of two completely different breeds, you are taking an even bigger chance with what you will get. There is nothing predictable about doing it.
Then there is the marketing of it. They want to claim that by breeding X to Y, they are getting the best of both worlds. Sure, you can get that, but you will just as often get the WORST of both, or somewhere in the middle.
Lastly, from what I am seeing at least, these often seem to be the most extreme breedings. They are it seems taking the wackiest over the top dogs of each breed and breeding them together. There from what I have seen is a lot of ignoring everything else in favor of as much drive as they can get. I have no problem with breeding for drive, but I do have a problem with breeding for it to the exclusion of all else. I am really curious how some of these crosses are to live with. Taking the most over the top Border Collie and breeding it to the most over the top Jack Russell and getting wacky over the top puppies with traits from both of the breeds isn't something I would want to live with.
 
I totally agree. I'm against creating mixed breeds, too. There are so many breeds u can use for sports, I don't see the point of taking risks and mixing other breeds.
 
This is something I have personal experience with - having 2 dogs that developed arthritis before the age of 6. And Tully, a small, extremely high drive dog, who was injured in agility. I've had a lot of discussions with numerous specialists, physio, rehab, breeders etc about selecting dogs for sports. From all this I've found there are 2 main reasons why dogs are showing up with arthritis when they are young.

1 - dysplasia. It's all very well to go for working lines of BCs (and here Kelpies) for agility, but there is no requirement for working lines to be tested for dysplasia. Tully's surgeon said he has a lot of working sheepdogs dogs getting hip replacements due to dysplasia. Dysplasia generally is on the increase and yes agility can trigger arthritis in a dysplastic dog. Wonder how many of the top agility competitors know the PennHip score on their dogs.

2 - Intensive exercise. Primarily fetch. Without a doubt every specialist has said they wish they could ban fetch. It puts so much strain on a dog's body and people will throw the ball with abandon thinking it is great to wear the dog out. Problem is a high drive dog does not know when to stop so they go far beyond what a dog's body can take. Tully was like this. Sheepdogs were not designed to go on and on - they have short bursts of activity and then stop, burst then stop. And yes there are other forms of intense exercise that is damaging, but fetch outstrips them all.

I cannot see why small dogs with high drive would present any particular issues - these type of dogs exists already and they are no less sound. I don't think the size of the dog is the issue, I think it's the size of everything else. One of the problems with agility is the equipment is designed for dogs of a certain size, so for dogs outside of those parameters equipment may put them under greater stress (courses and times in Aust are also not adapted for different size dogs so that can be an extra stress). Another problem I found here was so few trainers had experience running small dogs so their advise was sometimes not useful and other times dangerous. Tully's injury was partially equipment related - a small dog dropping off a seesaw is going to do much greater damage than a BC, and partially crappy training.

As for Border Jacks and Border Staffys - my understanding is they are mainly a flyball phenomena because small fast dogs are at a premium. Can't see why you would specifically want a Border Jack in agility when you could just run a BC.
 
Oh yes Caro I think intensive games of fetch are disastrous for dogs' joints. The BC I know that developed arthritis at six was always having intense games of fetch. It's problems were all in its front wrists.

Another tip from the Crufts lady, she only does the seesaw maybe once or twice a week because of the jolt it gives the dog.

What really frustrates me is the people who walk their dog for an hour or more before agility to 'calm them', so the dog is physically tired and now being asked to do agility. It would be like asking a sprinter to run a short marathon before competing! It's just crazy and a tired dog is far more at risk of injury.
 
From human standpoint running in general is really harsh on the body and can destroy your joints if you don't take care of yourself properly. You can ask any real runner, everyone has injuries. Also checking out painstaking effort people go to warm up and cool down, exercise and eat properly would be beneficial to create parallels with animal athletes since we just do not have enough animal science on the matter.
Sprint running is anaerobic activity and as such dog that runs fast needs superior fast clearance of lactic acid build up. So far we have only anecdotal evidence from PT chiro specialists that they are seeing increased number of injuries and decrease general health in athlete dogs. Granted we can not more talk about conformation rejects being sold as performance prospects, and I am sure among breeders that breed from sport dogs exclusively there is as anywhere number of really great ones that know and do every testing as well as number that still do BYB job. I am hesitant to blame it ONLY on poor structure although of course superior very specific and different from conformation standard structure has to be present for dog athlete.
 
labgirl said:
What really frustrates me is the people who walk their dog for an hour or more before agility to 'calm them', so the dog is physically tired and now being asked to do agility. It would be like asking a sprinter to run a short marathon before competing! It's just crazy and a tired dog is far more at risk of injury.
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I hadn't thought of that but it's true. There were always people with young dogs turning up to training after giving the dog a long walk or long session with a ball first.
 
Caro said:
2 - Intensive exercise. Primarily fetch. Without a doubt every specialist has said they wish they could ban fetch. It puts so much strain on a dog's body and people will throw the ball with abandon thinking it is great to wear the dog out. Problem is a high drive dog does not know when to stop so they go far beyond what a dog's body can take. Tully was like this. Sheepdogs were not designed to go on and on - they have short bursts of activity and then stop, burst then stop. And yes there are other forms of intense exercise that is damaging, but fetch outstrips them all.
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This is kinda scary.. we play fetch all the time. I think we're okay because we only play for 30 minutes or so at a time. She gets bored if we go any longer. It's scary to think that I might be hurting my dog...
 
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