Choosing a breeder - HELP!

A

AngelaW

Forums Regular
I'm not even sure how to start this, so I'll jump right in...

My mother raised Shelties when I was young (late 70's to early 90's). They are her breed of choice, and have always held her heart. There has not been a Sheltie in our family for over 20 years now, as my step-father has Chesapeakes, and when I was living at home I had Border Collies... Now I'm out of the house, and the Chessies are getting older, and I'm thinking about the #1 thing I tell other people to never do - buy someone a puppy as a present. My mother yearns for a blue merle Sheltie, so I plan to get her one at some point in the future.

I know that when talking to reputable breeders, they are going to be sketchy about wanting to sell someone a puppy that will be given as a gift. I am totally okay with that. I would rather a careful, questioning breeder than a greedy puppy miller. I have zero interest in lining the pockets of a puppy miller, and that's why I'm looking into finding a breeder a few years in advance. I realize it may take me that long to find the puppy I'm looking for!

I know in the BC world, there is a hush-hush list of people that nobody who is even remotely interested in a working dog would EVER buy from (but people new to the breed see the websites of and scoop up the puppies in their naivete). And the problem I'm running into while looking up Sheltie breeders is that I am NOT in the know in this breed! I'm seeing some scary-looking dogs popping up on breeder sites that even I can spot the faults on... Some breeders are listing websites on servers I know have been dead and gone for about a decade. Some breeders have sable merles, which I know are going to happen when breeding sable to blue merle, but since sable merles are not an accepted color in the AKC and some of these breeders are purposely breeding them, is this a red flag of a bad breeder ("rare colors" is a common dangling carrot of deception in the BC breed)? Lots of pages say things like, "We test for all common genetic issues." Um - that could mean anything! Does this mean you only test for CEA and dysplasia??

HELP!

I do not need a SQ puppy, but in going the route of a breeder instead of a rescue, I want to be diligent in that I'm buying from someone who is bettering the breed, not just lining their pockets. What should I be looking out for? What red flags should I be noticing? Are there breeders that have known issues in their dogs - deafness, etc? I also have a VERY big issue with double merle breeders - have no interest in someone willing to create puppies only to kill them so they can have a chance at a pretty show prospect. I also have no interest in someone breeding manic, psychotic Shelties. All the Shelties we raised when I was little were sane, mentally balanced, friendly dogs, but it seems like Shelties now have a reputation for being yapping, fearful nutjobs. Breeding basketcases because they look nice or can be debarked later is also a big red check mark for me.

So can anyone help me out here? I don't want to create a hateful thread where everyone is bashing breeders out there, so if you have a negative comment about a breeder (please! I want to hear them!), sending a PM would be nice. If you know of some amazing breeders that you've had fantastic experiences with, I'd like to hear about those too (against forum guidelines, I think, so PM there also?)! If you just have helpful tips on what I should be looking for, and what I should be steering away from, I'd love to hear that too! Anything you've got, I'd love to hear it!

Since we do have a history with the breed, I'm not totally in the dark. I just need some insider advice and info! :)

Thanks so much in advance, and sorry for the long post! :)
Angela
 
AngelaW said:
I'm not even sure how to start this, so I'll jump right in...




I'm seeing some scary-looking dogs popping up on breeder sites that even I can spot the faults on... Some breeders are listing websites on servers I know have been dead and gone for about a decade. Some breeders have sable merles, which I know are going to happen when breeding sable to blue merle, but since sable merles are not an accepted color in the AKC and some of these breeders are purposely breeding them, is this a red flag of a bad breeder ("rare colors" is a common dangling carrot of deception in the BC breed)?

Since we do have a history with the breed, I'm not totally in the dark. I just need some insider advice and info! :)

Thanks so much in advance, and sorry for the long post! :)
Angela
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not going to recommend any breeders...
check the ASSA website (http://www.assa.org/) to find people in your area.

My real comment is that sable merle is an accepted color- the sable merle dog just cannot have blue or merle eyes if you want to show the dog in AKC conformation.
 
not sure where you are in Utah, but I do know there is a rather large entry in shelties in Jordan UT this weekend...Soo if its close enough maybe its worth stopping by checking out the shelties there and touching base with the breeders.
 
I heartily support Calliesmom's suggestion of checking the ASSA.org website. That is how we found our breeder. We contacted our local ASSA breeder referral, and she put us in contact with our breeder. If you make clear what your preferences are for the type of dog (and breeder) you are looking for, the local ASSA group could probably not only help refer you to breeders who would meet your requirements, but also perhaps give you a list of breeders to avoid.

The Breeder Guidelines thread that Ann linked is also chock-full of helpful information and questions to ask a breeder. For example, in regards to testing for "common genetic defects," do they offer any kind of genetic guarantee, and if so, what exactly are the terms?

And, as Lightplum pointed out, if you could make it to a show to see some local breeders and their dogs in action, that might be helpful too... though it might not help you weed out the type of breeder you are trying to avoid (the kind only interested in beautiful show prospects).

I know how frustrating it is trying to sort out the breeders who meet your expectations, from those who do not. Like you, I was really only interested in a "Total Package" Sheltie--one that was not only pretty, but also structurally and temperamentally sound. As a child, my family had a Sheltie from a "backyard breeder," and she had all the health problems to prove it. So, like you, I was very leery to commit to a breeder myself unless I was certain that he/she was really in it for the right reasons.

Good luck! You have given yourself plenty of time, so I am confident that you will find the perfect fit for you, and a wonderful pup for your mother.

P.S.... Welcome to Sheltie Nation! We'd love to see pics of some of the Shelties you've had over the years. :biggrin2:

P.P.S. Gotta support Calliesmom on her defense of Smerles, too. :lol: That's what we've got, and though he is not a show prospect, it isn't because he's Smerle. His dam, also a Smerle, enjoys a very successful conformation (and agility) career. But, I am with you 100% on the double-merle thing. You should check out posts (and pics) from forum member MBFrench, who took in a blind and deaf double-merle (Mia) who, as I recall, was dropped off at a shelter by a man who frequently bred merles together, trying to produce double merles who could see and hear, but whenever the results of such breedings were deaf/blind, he'd take the pups to the pound. :mad: Michele and Brian have done wonders with Mia, but most double merles aren't that lucky, and in my opinion, any breeder who would be willing to take the risk of producing a double merle, is one to avoid.
 
There are a lot of weird things on the Internet. I think the website breeders.net is not a good source because those people aren't vetted... maybe that's where you were looking? I remember that one came right up. If you have some familiarity with the breed, then looking at pictures on the breeders' personal websites is helpful to make sure the breeders are working in the right direction. A good breeder will have some champions in the puppies' bloodlines (and you should be able to find out which champions... a general reference to champion bloodlines is not enough).

I think we got our breeder from the ASSA + the Chicagoland Shetland Sheepdog club. Both organizations had someone you could call to find out who has puppies. But we made several phone calls and were on at least two waiting lists. I also surfed the Internet a lot, but like I said previously, that can also lead you to BYB's (backyard breeders). This breeder has a list of helpful links in different states... http://members.ncats.net/jdselby/slinks2.html

Also, just so you know, there are some very good breeders that don't have fancy websites and mostly work by referrals. I would recommend just calling around or possibly attending a show. If you talk to the right person they can refer you to many others. It seems like the sheltie breeders all know each other.

Also, be aware that you may need to wait for the right puppy. It took us 9 months to find our puppy, Buffy. The wait is frustrating, but it will be worth it.

Finally, you may want to consider giving the person a heads up instead of giving the puppy as an unexpected gift. People may not react how you expect, and puppies are so much work that it's best to be prepared, physically and mentally. Sometimes people haven't gotten a dog themselves because of very good reasons, either related to logistics (e.g., they want to travel without worrying about a dog) or emotion (e.g., they haven't gotten over the death of another dog).

Good luck!

PS: Common testing for Shelties includes hips, eyes (CEA, collie eye anomaly), and thyroid. Shelties do not have too many genetic issues but if you do some searching you will see what the common ones are.
 
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Calliesmom said:
My real comment is that sable merle is an accepted color- the sable merle dog just cannot have blue or merle eyes if you want to show the dog in AKC conformation.
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Interesting! I looked the breed standard up on the AKC site, and while it showed that sable merles were possible, it does not list them as an accepted color. Thanks for the info! :)
 
mcemily said:
P.S.... Welcome to Sheltie Nation! We'd love to see pics of some of the Shelties you've had over the years. :biggrin2:
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It's been very interesting to me, searching through the champions from back when my mother had dogs and then comparing them to the champions of today. They almost look like two different breeds! :) I can remember when "tipped ears" first became all the rage, and the breeders were taping pennies to their puppy's ears to keep them perfectly tipped as the cartilage formed. Nowadays breeders just use their fancy ear glue... *lol*

Let me look around and see what I have on my computer...

My sister walking the family's first Sheltie, Challenger, when she was a year old:


Rider and Sunrise with some of their puppies:


Me with my first dog, Goldie:


Me with a bi-black puppy (later given to my mother's best friend as a gift, and named Lady):


Me with a tri-colored pup:


My brother with a sable puppy:


The puppies were very, uh... well-socialized. *lol*


... and liked to be decorated. ;)


A random puppy playing in the back yard:


A puppy learning to steal shoes at a young age:



mcemily said:
P.P.S. Gotta support Calliesmom on her defense of Smerles, too. :lol: That's what we've got, and though he is not a show prospect, it isn't because he's Smerle. His dam, also a Smerle, enjoys a very successful conformation (and agility) career. But, I am with you 100% on the double-merle thing. You should check out posts (and pics) from forum member MBFrench, who took in a blind and deaf double-merle (Mia) who, as I recall, was dropped off at a shelter by a man who frequently bred merles together, trying to produce double merles who could see and hear, but whenever the results of such breedings were deaf/blind, he'd take the pups to the pound. :mad: Michele and Brian have done wonders with Mia, but most double merles aren't that lucky, and in my opinion, any breeder who would be willing to take the risk of producing a double merle, is one to avoid.
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Oh, I think the sable merles are gorgeous, don't get me wrong! :) I just thought that they were still not an accepted color, so I was wondering if maybe people breeding for them could possibly be a red flag. I'm pleased to hear it's not! :)

I also used to work in rescue, and we had a double-merle Aussie puppy for a long time (whose name was Maya, if I remember correctly)... It's just so tragic to me that people would do such a thing. Those dogs are just as smart as any other puppy, but without the means to do everything a normal puppy can. It's heartbreaking. I personally enjoy deaf dogs, as I love a good challenge, and I find training with sign to be fun, but I won't support someone who breeds for such things. :(
 
Ann said:
We have an excellent thread on Breeder Guidelines loaded with tips for finding a good breeder here on the Forum. Start with the list of guidelines at the very beginning, and read the input that follows from Forum members and I think that will give you a good starting point. Good luck!

http://www.sheltieforums.com/showthread.php?t=6530&page=3
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I did look through there... it seems to be a very general guideline, and not necessarily Sheltie-only? I appreciate the suggestion though! :)
 
Lightplum said:
not sure where you are in Utah, but I do know there is a rather large entry in shelties in Jordan UT this weekend...Soo if its close enough maybe its worth stopping by checking out the shelties there and touching base with the breeders.
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Hmmm. I'm seeing some things come up online for a show in South Jordan tomorrow? Unfortunately, that's clear at the other end of the valley and I have to work tomorrow. :( I wish I would have known about it sooner, I could have requested work off.
 
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