Clicker Training Research

I happen to agree with all the others regarding the "click/treat" relationship. Everyone I've ever spoken to regarding clicker training, including professional trainers, states the "click" ends the trick and a reward follows.

I'll use agility as an example...
Teaching to go over a jump the first time, click/treat.

Dog understands the basic single jump so we add a 2nd: jump, jump, click/treat if successful. If not successful, a NRM (no reward marker) such as "oops" is used and you try again. Note, not even a "yes" is used here until the requested trick (2 consecutive jumps in this example) is achieved.

As you add on complexity, the click/treat still comes at the end of the behavior. The other advantage to this approach is it teaches the dog that sometimes they have to chain multiple behaviors together before they get a reward.
 
...As you add on complexity, the click/treat still comes at the end of the behavior. The other advantage to this approach is it teaches the dog that sometimes they have to chain multiple behaviors together before they get a reward.

That makes sense. But, using this method, do you encounter issues as you attempt to expand the sequence? (i.e. If you are trying to teach a series of three jumps beginning with one, adding a second then a third.) Do you run into issues where the dog balks after the first or second jump because he is used to getting the click/treat after just one or two jumps? If so, what specific steps were used to get over this?
 
To answer: "Do you encounter issues as you attempt to expand the sequence?"

Not really because you have given a command. It's not that hard to expand or chain things together.
 
That makes sense. But, using this method, do you encounter issues as you attempt to expand the sequence? (i.e. If you are trying to teach a series of three jumps beginning with one, adding a second then a third.) Do you run into issues where the dog balks after the first or second jump because he is used to getting the click/treat after just one or two jumps? If so, what specific steps were used to get over this?

Usually when you make things more difficult, sure there's a short period where the dog will hear the NRM a few times before they hear the click.

With shaping, the type of training more frequently associated with the clicker, you wait them out and let them figure it out on their own. Yes, this can be a long wait but often results in more solid, and independent, performance down the road.

The other option is to use commands and/or luring and guide them through the sequence. Presumably by the time you add the third jump they understand the word jump means go over the bar.

Personally, I'll use a bit of a hybrid between the two. I'll show him what I want the first time or two, especially if it is something really new. (I can't expect him to give me a behavior he's never seen before.) After that I switch to shaping and just wait him out for the behavior I want. I've been using this to teach right and left pivots for rally.
 
Silaria:

I don't know very much about dog training. When I had my 1st Sheltie, I was only concerned with very basic commands (sit, stay, down, come, potty training and a very few others). I did take a few obedience classes, but was happy when those were over because my little buddy was where I wanted him to be training wise. It is already obvious that I will want far more than that with my next Sheltie, hence my questions here and on several other SN threads.

It just seemed to me that there would have to be some difficulty encountered when expanding things once the pup gets used to one level of trainer/trainee interaction. Your response addressed perfectly the questions I had. Those of you who are already experienced (at whatever level) in the little nuances of training already know the answers that us relative newbies need to ask. I hope that my questions are not too "nitpicky", but I try never to assume when the area of assumption is so far outside of my knowledge zone. Thanks for the follow up.
 
Usually when you make things more difficult, sure there's a short period where the dog will hear the NRM a few times before they hear the click.

With shaping, the type of training more frequently associated with the clicker, you wait them out and let them figure it out on their own. Yes, this can be a long wait but often results in more solid, and independent, performance down the road.

The other option is to use commands and/or luring and guide them through the sequence. Presumably by the time you add the third jump they understand the word jump means go over the bar.

Personally, I'll use a bit of a hybrid between the two. I'll show him what I want the first time or two, especially if it is something really new. (I can't expect him to give me a behavior he's never seen before.) After that I switch to shaping and just wait him out for the behavior I want. I've been using this to teach right and left pivots for rally.

Agree! They don't just go "I've done enough steps -- OK can I have my cookie now?" and refuse to do anymore until they get their cookie. If they have a command known and you chain them they do them (such as knowing each rally move individually and adding one after the other on a course) but if you are adding an entirely new thing like in adding come around to sit (as in call forward return right), you have to train that step in the ways listed above just like you trained them to sit or down at the beginning. Some things are shaped/lured (you can bait them to sit or down or stand for example) and other things are wait it out til they get it (examples we recently had in class were touch a target and paws up onto a raised platform).

It's a process of imprinted what a click means and the once that is firm using that in conjunction with treats and praise to shape the behaviors.
 
I think I'm following this point here, but it leads me to questions. Suppose the sequence is yes-yes-no-yes instead of yes-yes-yes-yes? How does the dog differentiate the 3 things he did correctly from the one that he did wrong if the treat is deferred? Aren't you reinforcing the one mistake as much as you are reinforcing the 3 correct behaviors? Plus, how does this square with what seems to be a central point shared in nearly every clicker training instruction I have read? That being: it is essential to reward immediately after the correct behavior/click?

Very important distinction. You are very preceptive. Bob Bailey says "click for action, reward for position" i.e. if you click for lets say down but by the time you are giving treat dog has left down position you just rewarded for not keeping your cue. Click is really a snapshot or a laser point on what you want specifically reinforce. It does get complicated with motion behaviors. As for several behaviors chained together i.e. recall front finish right one needs to be very mindful and build up separate behaviors first. Chain is only strong as each separate piece of it. You might often see dog skipping stopping in front and just go straight into finish because dog got much more reinforcement and thus value for one behavior over another. If you receive yes - no- yes behavior it just means you went too far too fast and need to return back and build some more. Lumping behaviors and training whole big chains is typical mistake for many.
 
I'm afraid I also have to disagree with the concept that the click itself after a while becomes a reward. A reward = something nice and meaningful. I like seing my paycheck envelope because I know what's in it. The envelope itself is irrelevant if empty!

Clicker training is a presicion tool if used correctly and works because the learner is going to repeat an action that it gets rewarded for. The method is based on trust, if the dog hears the indicator noise (click) the reward for doing the action is going to follow shortly. When I am training I do sometimes mark totally the wrong thing. But if my dog hears that click he gets his reward, no matter what. As SheltieChe says, withholding the reward because the action was not what I was looking for will mean the power of the clicker as a marker is diminished and he will start to lose faith that the click ALWAYS indicates a reward. Why is he then going to be motivated to earn that click if it doesn't pay out?

For an example of expanding/enhancing a behaviour, when I'm teaching heelwork, I start off by clicking and treating every little good thing so the dog learns his position is by my side. Once the dog has the idea, then I start witholding the click for actions that are less good (right position but too wide) and only marking the best ones (in close)- that will improve the behaviour because the dog learns that only if he is right on my leg does he get that reward. Once I have the position satisfactory, then I will start witholding the click to maintain it for longer - so to begin with he gets clicked for each step, then every other, then every third and so on - but to keep motivation I will click and treat after one good step every so often (about once in 10-15 clicks). In this way the dog works extra hard because he doesn't know exactly when that payout moment will come. I've actually found with the more experienced dog that he 'ups the ante' if he doesn't hear a click for a bit because he really, really wants to get it then.

It is a balancing act witholding the click long enough to get to the 'OK I'm really trying now' point but not long enough that the dog stops trying and not giving so frequently that he isn't stretching himself. This random rewarding plays on the dog's gambling mentality to extend the behaviour.

My understanding of clicker training, having studied quite a few books and DVDs on the subject, is that it is a means of teaching the dog a new behaviour or behaviour chain. It is not something to be used as a reward on the completion of a seperate series of behaviours. So I would use the clicker to teach heelwork, to impove the position and to teach the dog to maintain the position over an increasing period of time. But I wouldn't go out and do a round of heelwork with sits, turns etc then click the dog and give him a treat at the end of it. There is no way that every single one of those actions will be perfect and therefore clicking the dog after a couple of minutes performing different actions will be meaningless. Nor would I click after completion of an agility course for the same reason. In these situations the dog is performing a series of seperate behaviours that it knows how to do and therefore I am not going to be teaching it, but I will be rewarding it at the end. The dog in this situation needs to have an expectation he will get a good payout at the end so you build this into training - once the behaviour is correct.

I think it is very sad to see dogs in competition come out of the ring and the handler witholds the reward because perhaps the dog missed a jump or broke the wait on a recall. If he has done the majority of the round well he will have no understanding of why he isn't getting his reward and the disapointment is evident. Where is the motivation for him to work with enthusiasm again if he is performing a complicated set of behaviours but with the liklihood of no reward? If I wasn't paid one month because I had made an error but no one told me that I'd done something wrong then I doubt I would feel like bothering to turn up the next month!

However, that doesn't mean the clicker can only be used to teach one action in isolation as you can use it to build a behaviour chain.
As an example, one of my favourite things to teach is a sendaway to something and lay down. I shaped Epic to do a basic sendaway to a mat 2 meters away in ten minutes with one and a half sticks of 'Schmacko' using the clicker (& backchaining). I will add that at the time, he had no prior experience of shaping (figuring out how to earn the click rather than being lured). So the dog learns to perform several actions (look at mat, run to mat, lay down )to get one click. The important thing here is that they are all part of one behaviour chain in response to a single cue - away.

What I wouldn't do is add in a recall off the mat before clicking unless I wanted the dog to run to the mat, down and then return off his own bat. My recall is a seperate behaviour in response to a different cue and I don't want the dog to take this action unless I ask him.

So my rule is clicker for teaching a behaviour, enhancing it and incorporating into a behaviour chain. Click is given at reasonably frequent intervals and always followed by treat.

On something like obedience/agility round where dog is performing several seperate actions on my cues for an extended period of time he will get a jackpot reward at the end, but no click.

I think the basic principals of clicker training are quite easy but it takes considerable practice to get the skills necessary to use it to teach difficult/complex behaviours and to improve a behaviour. I've been clicker training for about 8 years now and am a lot better than I was but a long way still to travel. :wink2:
 
Bob Bailey says "click for action, reward for position"

So that follows with distance work. Let's say have the dog on her 20 foot lead and I am with her 19 feet from her rug. I send her to the rug. I click. She turns to face me. I say/sign down. She downs. I click. I say/sign stay. I walk the 20 feet, circle her, and return to the heel position. I click and treat while she is still down IN position. I release her and we heel off. How could I treat for each step occurring 20 feet away from me? The click is the confirmation the action was right and a treat is coming at the end of the sequence. It is a given that each of go to rug - down - stay were individually taught prior to mastery level with click/treat. Chained, the reward comes at the end of the treat but the clicks in between are a YES confirmation of correct action. I don't think everyone is making the distinction of one single basic task (such as sit or down) being taught and a chain of mastered tasks to form a more complex maneuver (such as send to rug/down/stay or call forward return right).

It's click then treat. The reward isn't hearing the click, it's getting the treat. The sound of the click is meaningless unless they're getting a treat immediately after.. not a few tricks or minutes later.

This isn't true. The sound of the click is very meaningful. It delivers the message that the dog performed something correctly. While not a "reward" per se, it means YES-correct-a-reward-is-coming-keep-doing-what-you-are-doing-and-what-I-am-further-asking. They GET it. They know what it means. If the sound of a click is worthless and carries no information to the dog, why bother? Why click or say yes or whistle or anything? Why do shepherds whistle and call to the border collies or the hunters whistle and signal their dogs as they go for the bird? Why does anyone say good boy/girl? It's feedback and confirmation along the way, be it a yes, whistle, click, hand signal, etc. The treat will come when the multi-step task is completed.

Again -- I don't think everyone is making the distinction of one single basic task being taught and a chain of mastered tasks to form a more complex maneuver.

SO! OP -- what is the study you are doing on clicker training anyway? Whether people and dogs like it? Whether people use it? How people use it? Love to know what data you are trying to collect. What are they saying about it in the class you are taking?
 
Let me repeat something I said earlier, "I know next to nothing about dog training." That said, I find the following comment interesting:

I'm afraid I also have to disagree with the concept that the click itself after a while becomes a reward. A reward = something nice and meaningful. I like seing my paycheck envelope because I know what's in it. The envelope itself is irrelevant if empty!...

I've read SN posts, internet articles and viewed videos that advocated fluffy squeaker filled toys, ragged ropes as tug toys and hearty over the top enthusiasm to be used as "rewards" for our dogs, not to mention some of the oiliest, foul smelling bits of edibles used as treats. As a result, I'm not sure I follow the reasoning that a clicker cannot be considered as a part of the "reward". Perhaps if the use of the clicker was never used in conjunction with other treats, it would make more sense to me, but it would seem that (in my mind) the dog would consider it a "reward" because of the method of using it with the treat at times. I wouldn't think that he would consider it a "high value" treat, but I understand the theory that the click is a part of the reward system.

I totally get the analogy of the paycheck and the envelope, but the comparison falls short because of the differences between us and or dogs. I mean, we are talking about sentient beings, but they are beings who get excited when we do circus leaps and make goo goo faces in the back yard at night while dancing around a pile of poo. If they can equate that to a reward, why not a click which at least sometimes is followed by a tasty treat. Oh, and back in the day before direct deposit, I always found my pay envelope in the mailbox a bit of a reward. At least until the check was removed. :smile2:
 
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