Controling size?

[Narmowen]

Did those males have common ancestors in their pedigree? Or, were there are traits in common that might be genetically linked to their size cutting properties? For example, if they were all bi-factored or not bi-factored.

Also, did the dams of the in-size litters share any common ancestry with each other and/or the sires?

Not bi-factored. Two were tri-factor, one was pure for sable.

Our size cutters: http://pedigreelines.com/dog/show/name/birdsong-pokeberry-tyler (deceased)

His son Durango, and Durango's son Clark (neutered.)

Harry Potter (neutered) is Durango's grandson, and is a size cutter. We don't know if Luke is.

Tyler's pedigree: http://pedigreelines.com/dog/pedigree/id/35699

Could be from his sire. His dam was under 14 1/2", and Tyler, Durango, Clark and Harry Potter are all about 14 1/2".

 

[missjenneygirl]

What is a "proven" sire that reduces size? I believe you can have a dog that "tends to" hold size. If the dog is 14" and the bitch is 16", you can not guarentee you will not get any oversize pups. And if you didn't, it could well be the genetics behind both dogs. It is not as though breeding a large bitch to a small dog will give you pups in the middle. You will get large puppies and small puppies. A moderate dog will hopefully help to give you moderate pups, but geezz, it's not all him. If your sire is used often enough, you will see it all. So, all you can say with accuracy it the dog "tends to" sire large puppies or "tends to" hold size. I don't believe he can cut size.
I can't think of one kennel over another that has a lot of oversize puppies. If the bitch you breed, to several different dogs produces a number of oversize pups she is taken out of the program. It is in the decision making end of breeding long before the whelping box.

 

[HopeShelties]

My Caleb is a size controller.. out of his litters, his girls don't exceed 14", his boys haven't been over 14.5" (he himself is 15"). I do have to do my homework when it comes to who to breed him to, and don't tend to breed him to smaller girls. He was bred to a 13.5" girl and they threw a 10" puppy (nothing in the litter made size, only the one was that tiny). Of course, her agility home loves her and is excited about eventually running her in the 8" division, but that's certainly not what I want to breed for.

 

[missjenneygirl]

How can a dog be a "size controller" when he is only half of the equation? I wouldn't mention that to prospective breeding clients. The ones that know how it works would laugh, and the others would come back to you miffed if they get a couple of oversize puppies.
Mark, Am/Ca CH Cindahope Trade Mark, ROMC sired 44 litters in his career. A moderate dog, sired by a moderate dog Macdega Sausalito, sired by a moderate dog, CH Macdega Tiburon, etc. "tended to" sire moderate dogs. But with that many different bitches in the equation, size was not someting we could "control", only hedge our bets.

 

[corbinam]

Size controllers

How can a dog be a "size controller" when he is only half of the equation? I wouldn't mention that to prospective breeding clients. The ones that know how it works would laugh, and the others would come back to you miffed if they get a couple of oversize puppies.
Mark, Am/Ca CH Cindahope Trade Mark, ROMC sired 44 litters in his career. A moderate dog, sired by a moderate dog Macdega Sausalito, sired by a moderate dog, CH Macdega Tiburon, etc. "tended to" sire moderate dogs. But with that many different bitches in the equation, size was not someting we could "control", only hedge out bets.

I'm definitely not arguing here as I have no experience, but I think the "size controller" thing comes from Sheltie Talk. It sounded familiar to me so I pulled out my book. If you look at pages 47 and 48 (in the orange version), there is a section on how to breed for moderate size. The third paragraph says, "there are some Shelties who predominantly control size" and then "a stud dog who is known to control size can be very valuable". It goes to show how you might find a dog that controls size.

Just a different perspective from the book.

 

[missjenneygirl]

What I had an issue with is the wording. "controls" or "proven" to control. I agree, a dog that is moderate "tends to" produce in-size pups on average.The wording gives the impression that it is absolute. I agree with the content of her paragraph, and I think many people bred to Mark because he seemed to sire moderate pups. But again, I don't think he could "control" size.

 

[corbinam]

What I had an issue with is the wording. "controls" or "proven" to control. I agree, a dog that is moderate "tends to" produce in-size pups on average.The wording gives the impression that it is absolute. I agree with the content of her paragraph, and I think many people bred to Mark because he seemed to sire moderate pups. But again, I don't think he could "control" size.

That definitely makes sense. When saying "proven to control size" it makes it seem like you could breed a "size controller" to a 20" sheltie and get in-size pups, which isn't all that likely.

 

[OntarioSheltie]

Interesting thread.

I was recently speaking to Ginny and Sadie's breeder about Ginny's size, which we've been very surprised about.

Sadie and one other in her previous litter were over sized. The breeder said that with this stud, some of his kids were over sized.

When Sadie's breeder selected Ginny's dad, size wise she said she selected a stud who tended to father moderately sized pups. Ginny and her two siblings are all VERY different in size. Ginny at 6 months old is only 12.5" tall. Her brother is almost Sadie's size, so I'd say at least 16" and still growing. Ginny's sister is exactly in between (And kind a funny looking for a sheltie. Especially compared to how gorgeous Ginny and Brodi, the other two are).

Not sure where this wide variety of sizes comes from!

 

[SheltieChe]

hmm, other breeds seems to have more look alike pups but when you look at shelties, size, coloring, facial expression- what a variety.... wonder why?

 

[missjenneygirl]

Compared to many other breeds, the shetland sheepdog is a very young breed. Two times in the breed history there were known collie crosses. One back in England before the breed came over, and another one that is not documented because the breed was now registered with AKC, but it is thought this is when you started seeing the rich sable coloring. Until this time, shelties were mostly a variation on black. So, it is easy to see that sometimes there will be a throwback to a larger size.
A breed similar, but very old is the collie. Their litters breed true, and without a blink of an eye, owners can finish a whole litter. The terrier breeds, I believe are even older, and tell me all Norwich Terriers don't look alike.
A recent breed to be accepted in AKC is the Pyrenean Shepherd. They are all over the place. It seems no two are alike. We watched the judging at Westminster this year, an entry of 17. I judged their regional national several years ago. It is evident what they are trying to achieve, the parts are there, but on different dogs. Also a miriad of sizes.