Finally getting neutered. Opinions please!

[Tagg]

Neutering to solve an aggression or fear based problem is like closing the barn door after the horse left.
As for neutered dogs becoming more aggressive, I sincerely beg to differ. Maybe if the research subjects were already sexually mature before surgery but my observations on dogs that are done prior to this stage in their development has been that they are less likely to develop dog vs dog aggression.
When early neutering, those done before they leave the breeder's home at 8 - 10 weeks, became a fad, the one thing that these breeders discussed was the surprising reduction in aggression being reported by owners. The breeders I was involved with were doing this procedure to prevent unwanted breedings in their pet stock. I was a hold out on this early procedure, still am, but I would love to see a study done that includes those animals.
No one can safely say that their dog will never get separated from them. We can only try to protect them as well as we can. They are not robots so can be scared into running. All it takes is another dog attacking them, a sudden loud noise, guardian getting injured while out on a walk....the list goes on. We take in, as most rescues do, many dogs that the owners were no longer capable of keeping due to decline in health or even death. Several times, the family tried to keep the dog, even had promised to do so, but decided that they really didn't want the responsibility. Fortunately for those dogs, rescue was there to help but what if they didn't know about rescue and the dogs were still intact?? As I said before, a notice in the paper, an ad on Kijiji - puppymillers are good as acting the part of a loving home. One of the dogs that came from Tinsel's mill was housebroken and lead trained - certainly had been someone's pet prior to being incarcerated in the mill. I am willing to trade the remote possibility of a health issue, or shortened life span than I am to take a chance that a dog of mine becomes a puppymill statistic.

 

[3Stars]

One thing for sure, I certainly will say, I trust my vet and his years of experience, and our discussions, vs some of these articles. Not that the articles are bad, its just who are these people, how much training have they had, and are they college students writing an article for a grade with their thoughts?

This is where you need to take a look not only at the authors, but at the references they provide at the end of their study. For example, Laura Sanborne compiled the results of over 50 peer reviewed studies. All of her references are listed at the bottom of the page, and you can read each and every one of those studies for yourself, instead of depending on Sanborne's summary.

Another of the articles I posted included studies that have been published in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association, Applied Animal Behaviour Science, Journal of Small Animal Practice, and The Veterinary Journal.

The third article I posted was written by Parvene Farhoody, who is an adjunct professor at Queen's College in NYC. She's an extremely well known animal behaviourist, and owns "Behaviour Matters". Her study was based on the results from C-BARQ (University of Pennsylvania), which is has also been peer reviewed and found scientifically valid.

The last article I posted was written by Chris Zink DVM, PhD, DACVP , DACVSMR, and includes 40 peer reviewed studies in the reference section. They can all be easily found on the internet as well.

Altogether, that gives you almost 100 different peer reviewed and published scientific studies to research.

 

[3Stars]

There might be some great articles from students and their professors on the Purdue University site.

This came from Purdue - they discovered that male and female Rottweilers who were altered before 1 year of age were significantly more likely to develop bone sarcoma than dogs that were sexually intact.

http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/11/11/1434.full

 

[AusnAsh]

Sable, you have a point there. Anyone can post online so I do need to be careful with that. Especially since it's a blog. I'll make sure to check the resources.

Tagg, I'm completely on board with that too. It's much better to not take the risks on our beloved pets. I would be curious to see a study on that as well. I looked it up and shelties are sexually mature by one year old so Asher's growth wouldn't be stunted or anything like that.

3Stars: They definitely are all qualified, the authors from those articles. It's apparent that neutering has both advantages and disadvantages. Just depends on the individual dog and which is better for him/her.

 

[Caro]

Here's another interesting resource which combines the results of a variety of studies and provides references if you wish to do further research. It focuses on mainly health issues, but it does make mention of behavioural issues as well.

http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/spay_neuter_considerations_2013.pdf

One of the posters commented that evidence can be skewed either way - that's true to some extent, but if you are a good researcher you can weed through the studies and get rid of the ones that are biased/don't have enough subjects/didn't follow through for a long enough period of time etc. There's simply no denying that neutering impacts dogs.

I have a PhD, was a university lecturer and more recently a senior executive in national health and my responsibilities included men, adolescent and maternal health, all those areas requiring knowledge of how hormones work.

One of the major concerns with companion animal research into dog behaviour is the bias associated with owner reported based research. So I would be careful about interpreting this evidence.

The large amount of research into the role of testosterone across all sorts of species shows it influences aggression, dominance, risk taking. These are things needed for the reproductive survival of a species. So why would testosterone in dogs causes the reverse - I would need to see a lot more evidence than I am seeing to explain these claims.

 

[3Stars]

One of the major concerns with companion animal research into dog behaviour is the bias associated with owner reported based research. So I would be careful about interpreting this evidence.

I agree, and this impacts the arguments both for and against - I actually mentioned this as a concern earlier in the thread.

The large amount of research into the role of testosterone across all sorts of species shows it influences aggression, dominance, risk taking. These are things needed for the reproductive survival of a species. So why would testosterone in dogs causes the reverse - I would need to see a lot more evidence than I am seeing to explain these claims.

The research is available, and you clearly have the background to be able to read and understand the studies independently - so go for it . Feel free to PM me if you find an interesting study - it sounds like we have similar backgrounds, so if something catches your eye as particularly thought provoking, I'm sure I'd be interested too.

Perhaps if everyone steps back and takes a breather from this, at some point we could put together a thread with a variety of good resources both for/against altering (including studies of how puppy mills source their dogs, because Tagg does have some very valid concerns), so that people can make an educated choice one way or another. That's all I've been advocating all along - if people are educated and aware of the risks that BOTH sides present, and then make their choice, whatever choice they make is the right one for their dog.

As for myself, I'm going to take my own advice and take a breather from this thread - I think I've provided enough resources to keep everyone busy researching for a while, and I believe my position on owner education is as clear as it can possibly get. I know my position on this is contrary to the views that many of you hold, but I appreciated the respectful debate.

 

[ClantyreSheltie]

One of the major concerns with companion animal research into dog behaviour is the bias associated with owner reported based research. So I would be careful about interpreting this evidence.

This was one of Chris Zinks concerns as well, as presented in her seminar. A lot of "common wisdom" came from owner surveys 40 and 50 years ago. No control, no well defined terms, nothing. Time for new science, which she is happily working on. For reference, she is an orthopedic vet, so specializes in structure. She spent several years measuring bone lengths and collecting data on dogs, both altered and unaltered, rescues, purebreds, and mixes.

I have one neutered male, and one intact male. The neutered one is a familiar dog aggressive fighter. Neutering him helped, but he still goes after the older male, and sometime the girls. He's still pretty much an a****** at home, hormones or not. My 9year old intact dog breaks all the "common wisdom". He only humps when something needs humped, he doesn't start fights, he doesn't roam. He does mark, though, which is annoying.

 

[Justme]

My wife and I have decided not to get Dickens "neutralized" at all, unless he starts demonstrating some egregiously obnoxious behaviors.

My boy was intact for much of his life:

He was never overly aggressive.

He never marked in the house.

He wasn't given the option of roaming. (We have a fenced back yard, and in his life, he never went into the back yard alone. I was always with him.) I don't think he would have roamed anyway.

He never had any behavior problems of any kind.

I eventually had him neutered, because the vet said that his prostrate was a little swelled, and thought it would help.

The Mayo Clinic points out that "testosterone helps maintain men's:
bone density, fat distribution, muscle strength and mass, red blood cell production..." They say it can also play a role in energy level, memory, and concentration. (As a male, I was obligated to stand up for the benefits of testosterone. )

 

[OntarioSheltie]

My main concerns pertain to the point that 3Stars made. Asher does have a tendency to lick female dogs' private areas which is not acceptable. I know that it is a dog behavior, but I don't think it's tolerable at a dog park. The other is his fear of dogs. Asher likes a few small dogs now (which I'm ecstatic about) but is still very fearful of large dogs. He lashes out whenever he feels uncomfortable. I feel like the testosterone is playing a part in this since he tends to bark at other dogs with his tail up. I know that neutering wouldn't solve this. That's a training problem. But, perhaps it'll take hormones out of the equation and make it easier for him to let go of that tension(please tell me if I'm wrong).

What do you guys think about that? And thank you so much for all the comments. I know that this is a sensitive topic and I do not want to start something nasty. Everyone has their own opinions and experiences

I don't have anything to add regarding the neutering debate, but I do want to comment on the behaviors you mentioned.

Regarding Asher's licking behavior with female dogs. He might be less likely to do that if he's neutered, but there's no guarantee. It depends on the dog.

I fail to see the connection you're making regarding testosterone and insecurity. Maybe I'm missing something?

Asher's insecurity around other dogs likely isn't going to be fixed by neutering him. Holding his tail high isn't a dominance thing, especially in a dog that's already insecure. He likely does it because he's feeling unsure, he's worried so he's trying to make himself look bigger to compensate for his lack of confidence.

Insecure dog's often get picked on at dog parks because they're insecure. However, intact males can also be targeted by other dogs because they're intact (Maybe that's what you were getting at?).

Its possible that if you get him neutered that he will be targeted less because of the decrease in testosterone. But he may always be an insecure dog, neutered or not. Other dogs will always sense his uncertainty and pick on him for it.

To be honest, if dogs are picking on him or making him uncomfortable at dog parks, I'd stop bringing him to dog parks. Instead, make planned play dates with dogs that he does get along with.

Continually putting him in situations where he's uncomfortable will only make things worse, not better. I learned this the hard way. However taking him out of those uncomfortable situations and putting him in positive ones, may make him feel better about being around other dogs.

 

[celloyogi]

This came from Purdue - they discovered that male and female Rottweilers who were altered before 1 year of age were significantly more likely to develop bone sarcoma than dogs that were sexually intact.

http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/11/11/1434.full

That study chose to use Rottweilers specifically "because they represent a breed at high risk for appendicular bone sarcoma." Information gleaned from that study can't be directly applied to all dog populations/all breeds. It would be like surveying only university students and declaring results applicable to the entire human population. It is a problem in many studies, and in many cases largely unavoidable because it is rare that an entire population can be surveyed/tested/etc (when pop is big enough to amount to anything, that is...). A population of 5 or 10 doesn't count.