Get Down and STAY down!

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Lahree

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OK, I am so frustrated. I can't figure out how to get Ellie to remain in the down position until she is released from that position. She has known how to go into the down positon for 4 months. I have to lure her with a treat. If I hold the treat in my hand after she is down, she'll stay in the position patiently and attentively waiting for the treat. Once she gets the treat, she automatically pops up like a spring. She is really, really short, so it really KILLS my back to bend over a lure her into the down while I am standing up--although I have done it a gazillion times. If I do it that way, she will stay in the position until I straighten all the way up and then she pops up. The second she pops up, I say my negative word marker and we start all over again. So what I have brilliantly taught her is that as soon as I am not looming over her or as soon as she gets the treat, she'll just stand up and Mom will start the process all over again and she will eventually get another treat. I have tried doing the whole process on my knees, but I get the same results. She has the patience of a Saint waiting for a treat while lying down and then--POP--up she goes when she finally gets it. Sigh.

The obedience trainer told me to try having a treat in each hand and lure her with one hand but give her the treat from the other so that she would not expect it from one hand. Well, that turned out to be even MORE frustrating! Ellie took two seconds to figure out now there were DOUBLE the treats so she became frantic trying to figure out where she was going to get her treat from. She lost her concentration and was barking in frustraton and just gave up trying to do anything. I had to end with something she could have success on and we just did some nice super long sits. I decided I would ask for help before I worked on keeping her in the down position.

Somebody HELP MEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!
 
This is another method a trainer showed me to use with Deska (because he is so food orientated). It is kind of a negative reinforcement.

Put the food bag/treat pouch just out of reach but where he can see it easily. If he breaks, the treat pouch (and you can turn your back) for a short time, then try again. If the dog does as asked you get out a treat from the pouch/bag leaving it in the same spot.

I think at first we had to do a few leave its and then a few short stays (I was using the technique for stays) so he got the hang of the treats being taken away. It worked really really well until I had to work on stays where I left the room. No points for guessing what happened then!
 
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Can you try training it in reverse? Give your release worda and a little pole to get her toget up, before giving her the treat when you've lured her down. This way she knows that she's got to stay in that position until she hears the word and gives the behaviour before being rewarded. Once she's doing that reliably you can increase the duration of the down.
 
does she know the stay command?

Try having a second person holding her down when you get up, and i think you'll be able to graduate from that position to where you'll be able to walk away.

i've used that method when trying to teach bandit his "stay" command.

one thing my instructor told me not to do is dont treat a dog if they didnt do the exercise correctly,
so once you get her in the down position, stand up, and if she's still laying down, than treat her.
 
I would definitely try to work on the down command without the lure before fixing the problem. I think part of the problem may be that she is having to be be lured to go down...so she thinks her command is done once she is down. Just a thought. Also, incorporate the "It's Your Choice" game in with it. If you don't know what that is, I will explain...

"It's Your Choice"
Put a pile of treats, or kibble a fair distance away to start off with..enough space to give you enough time to cover the treats if she runs for them. And basically, that's all it is. Have her WAIT for the treat...if she goes for the treats, cover them up with your hand and keep them covered until she backs off. Once she does "YES!" and give her a treat from that pile. Seeing as tho your problem starts with the fact that she gets up once she get's her treat, I would have her offer you something...a sit or even a down. Once she gets good at it, move the pile closer and closer to her. Eventually you will be able to have the treats right in between her paws and she will not touch them. After you master that, try and go back to doing your down and stay down command...

Once you master that, then try the down. What I did was this(I will try and explain as best as I can - it's very hard to explain through typing):

So, say for arguments sake you're luring her with the treat in a closed fist...instead of bringing your fist ALL the way down to the ground, hold your fist with the treat IN FRONT of her...and just wait until she offers the down. Once she offers the down say "YES!" and place the treat between her legs. If she does not respond, do NOT lure her...just move to a different spot and try again. If she gets up, put her RIGHT back down without saying ANYTHING to her, and place a treat between her paws...make sure she does not eat it unless you a) say it's ok, or b) you give it to her. Once you've mastered that, you can put your hand to the side of your body without bending down and she'll go down.

I hope this makes sense. It's hard to come up with a decent solution because she breaks AFTER she gets the treat - and there's not way to "Take it back" once she breaks. But definitely try the "It's your choice" game, and maybe take a break from the "down" command. Make her THINK for her food...you know what I mean. I already have Replyka doing the "It's your choice" game and she actually shy's away from the food when it's close to her!! LOL

Good luck!!
 
romeosangiovese said:
Can you try training it in reverse? Give your release worda and a little pole to get her toget up, before giving her the treat when you've lured her down. This way she knows that she's got to stay in that position until she hears the word and gives the behaviour before being rewarded. Once she's doing that reliably you can increase the duration of the down.
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I think this might be on the right track. Rather than rewarding the down, you should work towards rewarding the "Up" on your cue.
 
I had a lot of trouble with this with Lexi at first. My obedience trainer had me work Lexi like this: First, I had to put her in a down. Showing her a treat or rewarding her for the down made her WAY to distracted to focus on the down and stay down. So after putting her in a down I give a verbal praise "Good down Lexi, good girl". My trainer also said if she got up, not to tell her to stay or down again, to only say it once! If she gets up, I have to guide her back down (at first I had to just hold her down) until I give her the release command. I started this portion of training kneeling down with Lexi, because we weren't just communicating well enough with me standing straight up. Now, the down and remain down works like a charm. Hope this helps!
 
I have always practiced stays with a second person first. This person holds the collar, while I walk away. If the dog is not attempting to get up, the person holding their collar gives treats. You return to the dog and release.

Second step is that the additional person stands up, but keeps a foot on their leash, so that the dog can not fully stand up. Again, treats are given if the dog doesn't get up. Return to the dog and release.

Once you got that down, do it without a leash.

A great time to practice stay is before feeding. Have the dog down stay before she can go eat. She doesn't get to go eat until she can stay for a very short time. (You can up it every day from a few seconds up into the one minute range)

We had a jack russell for six months this past year, and this dog was so hyper she shook whenever I had her stay. But over lots of time and practice (I made her wait for everything. Wait to go outside, wait for food, wait for treats) She got it! One day it just "clicked" in her head and I never really had trouble after that.
 
What wonderful suggestions everyone gave us! Thank you so much! I can't tell you how much I get from being a member of this forum.

With trial and error, we finally found what worked best for Ms. Ellie. I started out kneeling next to her and then lured her into a down. She immediately (like always) plopped nicely into the down. Shs did NOTget the treat for going down. I made her wait (she will wait allll night for the treat) and then when I felt she had waited long enough, I gave the command sit or I gave the command stand--when she did THAT, THEN she got the treat. We have done this enough times that she does not expect a treat for going into the down position and hence, she does not get pop up from the down position at all anymore! She knows she will have to wait to hear the command sit or stand and do that command successfully to get the treat. I can now get her into a down position while I am standing up and she will stay down and wait perfectly still and politely until she hears a command to do something else. I am so proud and happy!
 
Lahree said:
What wonderful suggestions everyone gave us! Thank you so much! I can't tell you how much I get from being a member of this forum.

With trial and error, we finally found what worked best for Ms. Ellie. I started out kneeling next to her and then lured her into a down. She immediately (like always) plopped nicely into the down. Shs did NOTget the treat for going down. I made her wait (she will wait allll night for the treat) and then when I felt she had waited long enough, I gave the command sit or I gave the command stand--when she did THAT, THEN she got the treat. We have done this enough times that she does not expect a treat for going into the down position and hence, she does not get pop up from the down position at all anymore! She knows she will have to wait to hear the command sit or stand and do that command successfully to get the treat. I can now get her into a down position while I am standing up and she will stay down and wait perfectly still and politely until she hears a command to do something else. I am so proud and happy!
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Excellent! Well done, Ellie! I thought that rewarding the release might work!
 
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