Handling systems????

[k9kreationz]

I love Switch.Joan Myers taught me that with Shadow.I don't think it was a NADAC thing tho but I could be wrong.Switch is changing leads on the flat before an obstacle.I have seen it use at the AKC Nationals.

I don't know if it's a NADAC thing, but it's the only place I saw it. I have seen it at CPE ("turn"), but usually, it's people who do NADAC also. So, that's why I said that. Most people in AKC, that I saw, either used actual directionals or nothing. LOL. But then, it seems that we do things differently a lot of times, here on the West Coast. So strange that it's different, lol.

 

[k9kreationz]

I've noticed that with these type of motion based (?) techniques that the handler commits the dog and then moves off while the dog is jumping to the next obstacle whereas with other methods the handler seems to wait around for longer (fractionally)

So true, so true. When I did the Peel seminar, one exercise, I basically had to run to a jump, touch it and go, doesn't matter if Koji is committed, he will commit. I was like, yeah yeah, sure. Um, he did. I didn't have to wait. I'd touch, Daisy would yell GO and I'd take off as soon as I could (took some training on my end) and Koji would take the jump. I was surprised. I thought he would have taken off after me, not take the jump.

I tend to pause too long. Honestly, I think it's my weight (and conditioning), it takes a lot to stop and take off again, LOL. But when I do things right, and just go, I'm always amazed that Koji does what I want. Obviously it's handler error, hahaha.

I am learning so much from this thread, thanks you guys, you're amazing!

Me too!

 

[Sealtainn]

That's what I've noticed since about a year or two ago. Big change. But then, courses have also been changing too (at least what I saw in AKC). What is OneMind? Another system?

Yes, OneMind I believe is from Finland.
The funny thing is from my perspective the changing attitude out west towards applying handling strategies that primarily use motion has been driven by the masses & not by the trainers.
As has been mentioned out west most trainers were GD based.
Have you noticed how much more information on handling systems like APHS are available today than there was 5 years ago, or even 3 years ago?
There are many more international handlers coming over to the USA for seminars or even extended stays (e.g. DW) & they are sharing a range of systems that rely on motion-based handling.

IMHO some (former-GD) trainers have been compelled to deepen there own understanding & skills as they apply to these motion-based systems because their students are educating themselves.

To add to this hasn't SG a little while back mentioned how she had been working in "new" handling --- yep: I've watched some videos & she too appears to have seen the light. Someone even mentioned the evolution of GD's system has started to consider motion --- wasn't there some surprise when he used a BC in some competition? Even take jump training: originally SS's jump foundation did not consider motion - and that has also changed somewhat.

 

[Sealtainn]

I'd touch, Daisy would yell GO and I'd take off as soon as I could (took some training on my end) and Koji would take the jump. I was surprised. I thought he would have taken off after me, not take the jump.

I tend to pause too long.

Ah: timing is oh so important. Clearly it was easier for observers with a keen eye to read Koji's commitment from a distance than for you where you were.

 

[SheltieChe]

So true, so true. When I did the Peel seminar, one exercise, I basically had to run to a jump, touch it and go, doesn't matter if Koji is committed, he will commit. I was like, yeah yeah, sure. Um, he did. I didn't have to wait. I'd touch, Daisy would yell GO and I'd take off as soon as I could (took some training on my end) and Koji would take the jump. I was surprised. I thought he would have taken off after me, not take the jump. Me too!

mmm, am thinking you are discussing rear cross with deceleration, you don´t shape the approach, done right at the jump by cutting behind the dog after he commits to the jump?
There are 3 broad categories of rear crosses the way I am taught, RC with deceleration mentioned above, rear cross on the flat/ it is news to me people call it switch although I have heard the term/ where change done between obstacles and lateral RC where you need to know your geometry angles, you can get somewhere from 60 angle to 15 depending on speed, place where you cut it etc

 

[SheltieChe]

I've noticed that with these type of motion based (?) techniques that the handler commits the dog and then moves off while the dog is jumping to the next obstacle whereas with other methods the handler seems to wait around for longer (fractionally)
I am learning so much from this thread, thanks you guys, you're amazing!

Kudos for hitting main spot where difference is! Superior intelligence! took me forever to figure it out
Yes, Dawn philosophy is a bit different and suits some people and dogs much more than others.
What you describing is a send. Definition of a send the way I know it is where your motion does not support the obstacle but supports the next obstacle that comes after that. Using APHS system I would support my dog with verbal cue jump, arm/ shoulder turned towards first jump and indirect eye contact while at same time my motion would be towards second obstacle. I think Dawn rather likes showing the path like putting can of paint in the hand and spraying it on the course and not too big on show and go behavior
Ok, if you look at the pic at Silvia article Busting the myth 3- Too slow for your dog? you will see example of show and go or forward send as I understand it. Made my runs so much better but not everyone´s cup of tea.
http://www.lolabuland.com/

 

[seashel]

Yes, OneMind I believe is from Finland.
The funny thing is from my perspective the changing attitude out west towards applying handling strategies that primarily use motion has been driven by the masses & not by the trainers.
As has been mentioned out west most trainers were GD based.
Have you noticed how much more information on handling systems like APHS are available today than there was 5 years ago, or even 3 years ago?
There are many more international handlers coming over to the USA for seminars or even extended stays (e.g. DW) & they are sharing a range of systems that rely on motion-based handling.

IMHO some (former-GD) trainers have been compelled to deepen there own understanding & skills as they apply to these motion-based systems because their students are educating themselves.

To add to this hasn't SG a little while back mentioned how she had been working in "new" handling --- yep: I've watched some videos & she too appears to have seen the light. Someone even mentioned the evolution of GD's system has started to consider motion --- wasn't there some surprise when he used a BC in some competition? Even take jump training: originally SS's jump foundation did not consider motion - and that has also changed somewhat.

That is really fascinating (I know I've said this a lot!). Coming from an obedience background where really training techniques have altered very little over the years except to become more reward based, I love that agility seems to drive people to experiment with new techniques and be open minded to adopt 'rival' methods. But especially I like that as well as improving performance, there is a very heavy emphasis on the dog's perspective and well being.

I think this is a really interesting study from an agility perspective - sorry if you all know about it already!:
http://content.apa.org/journals/com/116/1/27
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/31897694/ns/health-pet_health/t/dogs-understand-gestures-well-toddlers/

I got my long awaited GD DVD today and think I'll need to watch it often as there is a lot to take in. Already I can see distinct differences between his system and others but as the DVD was made some years ago, it may not be exactly how he does things now. Nevertheless there is a lot of very useful information for a foundation.

I can see there are benefits and drawbacks to all the different techniques and it possibly depends on specific dog/handler combinations as to which method is 'best'. I imagine that strategies may also need to change over time as the team becomes more experienced or perhaps dog or handler develops a medical issue. I suspect with this amount of diversity there needs to be different systems to accomodate everyones' abilities. I just love seeing the variety of dogs that participate in agility and handlers across the spectrum, again so refreshing after obedience which here is very much geared towards large dogs and collies in particular especially at the higher levels.

I really like Cheryl's suggestion of trying out different methods to see what works best. I hadn't thought of that but it makes sense as on the whole it seems you don't have to really teach the dog what the cues mean as they respond instinctivly to certain movements (as per the research and One Mind) so I would get a fair idea of what is going to suit us. One thing I am going to avoid though is doing something that generates barking no matter how good it is!! Got to think of the neighbours!

I have picked up from comparing videos of different handlers' runs over the same international course is the motion systems appeared to get smoother runs with less gasps of concern from the crowd . I don't know whether they were quicker though. I'm going to look at some clips from the International invitation class at Crufts to see whether the same was true on our more open courses.

 

[SheltieChe]

Seatainn, really interesting it is students who are being driving force now, I thought it would be other way around.
Seashel yes, GD DVD is dated it is not how he teaches it now but is still good for beginner purposes. Which ones did you get?
You seems to have great approach looking for info you need by watching tapes and comparing.
Regarding your training if I may suggest, keep your verbals. The era of running silent is gone. Not that you won´t have occasional training proofing without verbals but the more information is better.

 

[HopeShelties]

Technically, Developing Jumping Skills is also dated. My trainer told me there are plans to release an updated DJS with the changes Linda has made over the last few years.

 

[SheltieChe]

I believe LM has been teaching new jumping course? http://www.awesomepaws.us/
Am fairly recent newcomer to agility but even for my memory agility info has exploded all over the net, just about every big agility name person has on line classes or provides video consultations.
For those who might be looking more into APHS there are 2 books and several DVD sets from Linda Mecklenburg. Also Daisy Peel teaches online foundation and handling courses. Several DP courses are themed and avail as self guided course, pretty much like a very large DVD. Those are APHS Skills and Drills made together with Linda M, based on LM series of articles from Clean Run 2012 with lots of info from both as well as discussion forum with people who took original course and received advice from LM and DP during the course. DP also has Blind Crosses self guided course, which is great because it starts from the ground up info on side changes and ends with full courses as well as DVD ¨Look back¨ included in the course. Same goes for Rear cross course from Daisy Peel, everything from ground up what you need to know about rear crosses.