Handling Systems

[Phebe*DD]

Having been trained under the Derrett handling system I just want to say that I find some of what has been said about that system to be less than accurate. I've never heard the difference between the 2 major systems described as motion vs. position. The way the difference has been described to me is that Mecklenburg uses a lot of pre-cues, while Derrett does not. I'm certain that's an oversimplification.

We use motion or more precisely a change in rate of motion all the time to signal acceleration or deceleration. My dog easily reads that cue whether I'm ahead, behind or lateral from her. Also, no matter what system, or even lack of a system, you are using, you can always allow for opportunities to modify your handling based on what is happening on course -- the 'what ifs'.

It is true that Derrett instructors will quite often tell you to correct your position, most often feet and shoulders, when your dog has gone in a direction you did not intend. But, I don't think I've ever seen a dog handled by Mecklenberg trained handler entirely ignore the foot and shoulder position of the handler. Cuing off the body position of handler is natural for the dog, which is why is very hard to override a body position command with a verbal command.

As we've developed into more of a team, I'm finding that I need to give fewer verbal commands beyond our release word and the occasional use of her name to draw her attention. Saying my dog's name is the strongest verbal cue we have.

I'm not interested in debating whether one system is better than another, because I've seen successful and struggling handlers from both systems. I think the important element in becoming a successful team is consistency from the handler. You can't expect your dog to perfrom consistently when your signals for a behavior are constantly changing.

 

[corbinam]

I'm not interested in debating whether one system is better than another, because I've seen successful and struggling handlers from both systems. .

This is very true...it's like arguing religion. No one can really win. And I think that most of us agree that we're sticking with what we have tried, and has worked for us and our dogs.

 

[Silaria]

But, I don't think I've ever seen a dog handled by Mecklenberg trained handler entirely ignore the foot and shoulder position of the handler. Cuing off the body position of handler is natural for the dog, which is why is very hard to override a body position command with a verbal command.

Very true statement. I don't know how many times I've heard in practice "look at where your feet are pointing" and 9 out of 10 times they were pointing directly at the obstacle Edan took.

I'm not interested in debating whether one system is better than another, because I've seen successful and struggling handlers from both systems. I think the important element in becoming a successful team is consistency from the handler. You can't expect your dog to perfrom consistently when your signals for a behavior are constantly changing.

Agreed!

You will never hear me say system X is better than system Y because they all work. Sure, system Y may be better for Dog A than system X. I've seen where handlers completely changed systems and retrained the dog with a lot of success.

There are many ways to succeed at the same thing. The key is to find what works best for you (and your team) and stick with it.

 

[Toffee's Mom]

Wow, very well said Margaret, I completely agree... I also don't think any handling system is better than the other. Consistency is the key and whatever works best for the team.

 

[Ania]

I'm not interested in debating whether one system is better than another, because I've seen successful and struggling handlers from both systems. I think the important element in becoming a successful team is consistency from the handler. You can't expect your dog to perfrom consistently when your signals for a behavior are constantly changing.

I could not have stated that better.

Around here all the 'serious' agility competitors train under the Derrett system. I'm not sure why no one trains the Mecklenberg system of handling. It would be nice to have an option if you wanted. I think maybe because we are too small of a place and don't have the demand?

 

[HopeShelties]

That's the thing- around here, the only people I know of that use Derrett *don't* use acceleration/deceleration. They are the ones standing on the line in fast butt handling, trying simply to use position. They are also the ones that are in the regular classes trying to use position alone, and both acceleration and deceleration are expected without any cues to do so. The dogs run by these handlers are constantly in a state of confusion.
Around here, within a few hours of Linda Mecklenburg and Jennifer and Susan Crank, if people use a handling system, it's primarily APHS. It's what the area has to offer, with the best handlers in the area generally using this system. So, it's understandable that the ones that try following Derrett execute it as poorly as they do, given there is no real instruction using his methods here.
Often when things are learned secondhand (or thirdhand...), the methods tend to get morphed into something else entirely, as they are the person who's teaching the methods interpretation of the system. Case in point, my old trainer, who claimed to teach APHS. Since leaving her, I've had a major eye opener. What she was teaching, her interpretation of APHS, is not APHS.

 

[Phebe*DD]

Stacey, no wonder you have such a critical view the Derrett system. From what you just described, it sounds like those handlers have taken one element of handling and tried to apply to every situation. No handling system would work, or look anything like either Mecklenburg or Derrett intended it to, if applied in that manner.

I do want say one more thing about changing handling systems. If the system you were first taught isn't working for you, I would suggest first of all determining whether you've been taught the system in its entirety and as it was intended. If not, you (meaning anyone, not a specific person on this thread or board) really should consider finding a trainer who can teach that system correctly, or a trainer who teaches whatever system they use correctly.

Finally, that kind of retraining will mean that your handling will change significantly. My personal opinion is that it is best to cease trialing for several weeks, really at least 2 months, to allow yourself and your dog to adjust to those changes. One of my instructors likes to say, "Don't complain. Train."

I know it's hard to quit trialing when everyone else is running, but it's exactly what I did after the first of the year. Now, as we're looking toward 2 trials later this month, I feel much more prepared and confident about the areas where we were having problems. Our contacts are night and day different. I'm finally comfortable with our running A-frame. I have a lot more confidence in Phebe's attention at distance.

We didn't even change systems, but we needed the time to mature as a team. It's hard, because trialing is fun, but when things aren't going well, it ceases to be fun and becomes stressful, and worst of all that stress bleeds over into your training. For me it can become a negative cycle and the only way to break that cycle is to take trialing out of the equation.

 

[corbinam]

Often when things are learned secondhand (or thirdhand...), the methods tend to get morphed into something else entirely, as they are the person who's teaching the methods interpretation of the system. Case in point, my old trainer, who claimed to teach APHS. Since leaving her, I've had a major eye opener. What she was teaching, her interpretation of APHS, is not APHS.

This is very true. I've talked about this a lot with some of the more seasoned agility handlers. Agility has changed so much in the past 20 years, and not always for the better. It has become much more popular, but with that comes diluted information.

 

[Ania]

One of the first things we learnt in the Derrett system is accel and decel cues, and we were told very sternly to protect them with everything we do! (ie. when playing fetch, make sure you move when you throw the ball to let the dog know that he/she is allowed to accelerate past you. If you stand still, you are killing your decel cues etc.) We learnt these before any FC, RC, threadles etc.

 

[nellie123]

As a novice I really don't have one handling system and I haven't even thought about different handling skills. Though in the run thrus I've attended, it seems that I tend to use rear crosses and runnin with my arms out sometimes. I'm really not worried about a handling system at the moment. Over the summer I plan to work on front crosses and rear crosses.