High Protein Diets

[Silaria]

Maybe this will help pull the thread back on topic:


I actually spoke to my vet about the high protein, grain free, foods. She knows I run Edan in agility and that we are very in tune with the needs of our animals.

The only thing she cautioned me on was to make sure the food I select was well balanced between the proteins and the carbs because dogs are omnivores like ourselves and their are certain nutrients they need that come from the carbs. When I told her the food I was looking at, Blue Wilderness Chicken formula, had chicken, turkey, sweet potato, flax seed, carrots and other fruits and veggies she was comfortable with my selection.

 

[The Quahog]

Well, thanks Ann. I would like to reemphasize a point from my original rather endless rant- while the science of my post was correct, the nutritional significance remains controversial. Again, the point is always consider the information and the source, , never accept it as the one truth. - Dr. Mac

Final thoughts- There is of course another side to the argument, which I respect. Science and medicine aren't about 'me right- you wrong', its about getting to the truth. A dog has to get energy from some food ingredient, and if not protein then the options are carbohydrates or fat. The concept of 'protein for protein creation and some energy, carbs for the bulk of energy production' can be challenged by 'protein for energy, don't worry about the kidneys, dogs are designed to handle it, carbs are simply bad.' That is a bit of 'another story for another time'.

 

[Megansmom]

Thank you, thank you, thank you, Dr. Mac! We have done the food discussion to death on this Forum (see numerous threads under Food); it's something everyone is very passionate about, and everyone knows (or thinks they do) what is best for their dogs.

This thread was opened as an avenue for our esteemed vets, Dr. Mac and Dr. Shelly, and members, to discuss high protein diets and it has now gone far afield. It was not meant to discuss the virtues or failings of Hills vs. Science Diet vs. Raw vs. holistic foods.

Please stay on topic, people.

Sorry I strayed off the topic Ann, I promise I wasn't trying too . Okay, let's think about cute puppies running around freely in fields of flowers,

 

[SheltieGuy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellulose

Thank you, thank you, thank you, Dr. Mac! We have done the food discussion to death on this Forum (see numerous threads under Food); it's something everyone is very passionate about, and everyone knows (or thinks they do) what is best for their dogs.

This thread was opened as an avenue for our esteemed vets, Dr. Mac and Dr. Shelly, and members, to discuss high protein diets and it has now gone far afield. It was not meant to discuss the virtues or failings of Hills vs. Science Diet vs. Raw vs. holistic foods.

Please stay on topic, people.

Well I will be the first one to admit I DID NOT KNOW what was best to feed my pup. High/Low Protein....grain vs grain- free.. omnivores or carnivores. A lot of those food threads were started by me looking to educate myself. ( along with talking to my vet..my family....and the internet.) And I for one appreciate ALL the responses but those from the DR's the most!!

I was clueless to what corn...gluten....soy ..etc.. etc ..was it good or bad ..right or wrong.

ITs funny ..... more so on yahoo then here... if you dont feed Orijen, wellness or raw you are a fool!! ( i guess they believe $$ = quality).
I have chosen a food ... I like it .. my pup likes it and my vet is ok with it. (i was hoping the vet would jump up and down and say great choice but oh well).

I dont like recommending foods to others anymore because .cuz who am I to tell you what to feed your dog??.(if someone pms me and asks about what my research has uncovered and my opinion i will tell them.)
My last dog was on an ALPO diet and lived 14 years although.. died of kidney failure (was there a connection there with the food i was feeding....we will never know.) The price of canned alpo is more expensive than feeding him his current "holistic" dry dog food soo i figure lets give it a try. Is it the right food ?? I dont think anyone can really answer that... maybe your vet can with a blood work up and all kinds of tests...

For instance the all knowing dogfoodanalysis site.. the top products are all grain free..... so if you believe your dog is not a pure carnivore that site is useless to you.



AS for Cellulose ...it pretty much is sawdust ... i dont see how you can argue that. (IMO)

as for BHA and BHT ... they say it is fine in moderation......(just like ETHO)(http://nutrition.about.com/od/changeyourdiet/a/bhabht.htm)
But you can find foods without it sooo once again (IMO) i would rather just do without it.

High/low protein... there are soo many different views on the subject (views vary from vet to vet.... I know this because I called 4 vets and they all had a different opinion on it).. I am scared of high protein due to my own personal issues with it..of course that doesnt mean i am right or wrong.One or both or the vets here (not sure if it was one or both...correct me if i am wrong)) and 2 vets i called recommended between 21-32%... so that is what i try to stick with ... along with other "healthy" ingredients.

I dont agree with "i feed better than you feed".(which really doenst happen here.. but it does tend to get heated) Just take a look for yourself at the ingredients... if you dont like them dont buy it... as for prescription dog food.. i think it is rather low quality for its price (i fed it too my dog for 7 years.)


But if someone here asks a question like "Is Hills or Purina One good for my dog?" you have to expect a volcanic eruption to ensue!

Thank You for listening.

 

[SheltieGuy]

Well, thanks Ann. I would like to reemphasize a point from my original rather endless rant- while the science of my post was correct, the nutritional significance remains controversial. Again, the point is always consider the information and the source, , never accept it as the one truth. - Dr. Mac

AS for you DR. Mac,


I dont consider your posts rants ,,,,,when you are trying to help us understand between truth and lies or fact and opinion. I am happy that you give your insight.



I view some of these threads or questions as a "help me" figure this out.... between vet visits.

 

[sable]

Thanks to our vets for a great discussion. As my friends and I talk dog food, and learning through their bad experiences, their good, and my own that is why I feed my shelties like I do. Then standing in different stores and reading and reading. I am anal about it I must admit. My shelties are on Wellness 5 Mix 17%, I add TOTW which is 26%, that is the salmon for Omega. So I feed them low, but add their treats in, plus the TOTW, I think I come up safe on the mark for %.


THANKS!!!

 

[Belladora]

I have Bella on Wellness Puppy. I have not seen but one post that even mentioned Wellness and that was the adult formula i think?

Any input? I did reasearch and decided on that one because i can get it locally and seemed to fit the bill on nutrition and ingredients to have and to aviod but i am a mere amature here. I love this forum I am learning so much. thanks, Mary and Bella

 

[Fergusmom]

My Baxter eats Wellness, the reduced fat variety, because he was morbidly obese when I adopted him from rescue. Some people say their dogs have a problem with loose stools on it but Baxter has never had any trouble at all. I've done a lot of reading and research on foods, boggles the mind sometimes all the info that's out there. From everything I've read Wellness is one of the best. I know Baxter has done very well with it.

 

[OntarioSheltie]

I had Ginny on Wellness Puppy and now both of my girls are on Wellness Super5 Mix. They're doing wonderful on it and love the taste.

Sadie had previous digestive issues that took months to sort out but the Wellness is the only thing that she's done really well on. Sadie's coat as never been so shiny and full.

I chose Wellness because its guaranteed analysis most closely matched the vet food she was on. I was going for a food that didn't have super high protein or fat levels (We suspected she was having issues with chronic pancreatitis.).

 

[BarbV]

Ok almost 12 months later....I found myself rereading this thread?

Why? Because as a new pet store owner, I'm constantly asked by customers which pet food is best for my pet?

I constantly struggle with the answer. It usually requires me to drill down with more questions about the dog itself...

That is, is it overweight, any skin allergies, stool issues, etc.

Then I try to explain the difference between commercial and premium and holistic brands. There is a fine line between premium and holistic and much of it, in my mind is in how its advertised. Both contain a high amount of nutricuetical ingredients, but holitic purports to only use "whole, natural" ingredients but noone ever really explains what that means.

I'm learning though that food allergies are a response to one more proteins in the food (not the level of protein, however), so if your dog appears to be reacting to chicken (one of the most common culprits), switching to another protein base may solve the problem.

I'm also learning that the premium food have a highter level of digestibility (i.e. how much of the protein can be broken down by the dog's body and then absorbed into the body where it can be used). Foods that are highly digestible are also more efficient, resulting in being able to feed lesser quantities to maintain weight and less stool.

The problem then is when reading in the ingredient list, how can you determine whether the ingredients are being efficiently absorbed or not?

It all sounds good on paper, and still no clear cut answers. Well, duh! If there were clear cut answers we would only have one food, right?

But back on the protein discussion, specifically.....In my view, nothing wrong with a super high protein (e.g. 32% or more) if your dog is highly energetic and can process the protein effectively. But I think for your run of the mill Sheltie getting 1 or 2 walks per day, and who prefers to be more lap dog then tred mill dog, that is too high. I think a protein diet of 24 to 28% is acceptable for this kind of dog.

Most grain frees tend to be highter in protein, so do read the labels. I personally like the idea of grain-free but am constrained to Now! Adult and one or two varieties of TOTW to keep the protein level manageable.

The problem here is that you might not even know that your dog has liver or kidney issues until they get older. Often, these diseases manifest early but do not show symptoms until their later years.

I guess I was "fortunate" that we discovered Bacca's liver issues due to blood work for other reasons. For that reason, I know that I have to watch his diet constantly.

Since I switched him from Orijen to Now! Adult Maintenance, his ALS/ALT counts are still higher than normal but significantly reduced but still not normal. That being said, he certaintly does not act like a dog who has problems, so you just never know.

I guess all I'm saying finally is that too much of a good thing may be a bad thing. I believe in a moderated and balanced approach based on their dogs current conditions....and this is now what I recommend my customers.

It does make it difficult to say "yes to the food", but at least I can pull them away from the crap.

Sorry for the long email.....I think I needed to write this to help solidify in my mind what I've been telling customers and make sure that it makes sense.

Thanks for listening.