How Do You Teach "Back-up?"

I teach "back at heel position" slightly differently. The back up in front of me is easy but in heel takes work.

I come from GSDs and Schutzhund and there is a trainer I just love, Michael Ellis. His stuff (google him) is great for all dogs and training in any venue though, not just GSDs and Schutzhund.

I teach a response to collar pressure. Start against a wall or gate and apply slight steady pressure with the leash and collar while standing in heel next to your dog. Without saying anything and not jerking, just steady pressure, wait until your dog takes a step backwards to relieve the pressure from leash/collar. The moment they step back, click/mark and release the tension. Gradually add additional steps. Once they start immediately responding to the pressure, I put it on cue "reverse" then add the pressure, mark and release. From here I then go back to working on attention again (some dogs lose attention while figuring out how to relieve the pressure) and add the cue, lure for attention and then pressure if needed.

This is done against a while for a little while to help them learn how to move their bodies in a straight line without swinging out. Provides a beautiful Rally E back up! :)
 
K9Queen said:
I teach "back at heel position" slightly differently. The back up in front of me is easy but in heel takes work.

I come from GSDs and Schutzhund and there is a trainer I just love, Michael Ellis. His stuff (google him) is great for all dogs and training in any venue though, not just GSDs and Schutzhund.

I teach a response to collar pressure. Start against a wall or gate and apply slight steady pressure with the leash and collar while standing in heel next to your dog. Without saying anything and not jerking, just steady pressure, wait until your dog takes a step backwards to relieve the pressure from leash/collar. The moment they step back, click/mark and release the tension. Gradually add additional steps. Once they start immediately responding to the pressure, I put it on cue "reverse" then add the pressure, mark and release. From here I then go back to working on attention again (some dogs lose attention while figuring out how to relieve the pressure) and add the cue, lure for attention and then pressure if needed.

This is done against a while for a little while to help them learn how to move their bodies in a straight line without swinging out. Provides a beautiful Rally E back up! :)
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Wouldn't work for Ms Ellie
She's too reactive and has too many issues to start applying pressure anywhere, in my opinion.
This is also a far cry from positive training
 
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Toffee's Mom said:
Wouldn't work for Ms Ellie
She's too reactive and has too many issues to start applying pressure anywhere, in my opinion.
This is also a far cry from positive training
Click to expand...

For most dogs all you have to do is lean towards them or take a half-step towards them and they will back up. It is a much less intrusive way of putting pressure on them, using body language that they understand. No collar pressure needed.

You can start with the dog between two rows of chairs, so that she only can back up straight. Then move the rows each time an inch apart. Then remove one row and approach the dog slightly angled, rewarding for only a couple of step directly backwards.
That should give ya a good straight back up, too :D

In agility I don't care so much whether it is perfectly straight, lol
 
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Ellis is doing absolutely perfect just using the wall, using the treat method as I described two posts ago. She will have no problem getting it down perfect. SHe is so food motivated that I don't have to use any other method. :lol: She is a fabulous working dog now. We must have done something in right in two and a half years, lol. I think it's US who are the slow learners.
 
It sounds like Ellie really turned the corner! there might hope for us yet somewhere :wink2:
I used 2 methods to teach Che back up. First from SG is to throw food between dog's legs which automatically makes them back up and second I just shaped whenever Che used it naturally in tight spots in the house.
 
Toffee's Mom said:
This is also a far cry from positive training
Click to expand...

If you think so, but I disagree. The way I do it, it really is no worse than when a dog pulls on leash *shrug* I have a very sensitive little sheltie gal too, Sassy. This is done on a buckle collar and I am not pulling the dog back. I am putting backwards tension on the collar with the leash and waiting. It isnt done harshly or with a jerk. It is done to teach the dog to yield to pressure instead of their natural tendency to resist against it. The tension is released upon the first step back, the behavior is marked (verbal or clicker) and reward is given.... Far cry from correction based training in my book :winkgrin:

Different ways to teach lots of behaviors. However, teaching a back up while in front and not caring if they are straight is fine, depending on the venue you are teaching it for. For Rally-O, it is not done in front, but at heel and the dog needs to back up straight with you. Many ways to go about it. I was just presenting another.

Glad to hear you are getting the behavior you wanted when you first asked :)
 
Yes, I think if we train against the wall that she will quickly learn backing up straight. The first two steps back are straight, LOL! It's the third that goes astray.

Because I work Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays, Ellie and I most likely will never compete. I signed up for the rally classes to improve Ellie's confidence and get her to trust other dogs and to have a bonding experience with me. If she always backs-up crooked, oh well. At least she tries and with Ellie, that is a HUGE, HUGE, HUGE thing. Is anyone familiar with Sarah Mclachlan's song, "Ordinary Miracles?"

"It seems so exceptional
That things work out after all
It's just another ordinary miracle today"
 
Lahree said:
Yes, I think if we train against the wall that she will quickly learn backing up straight. The first two steps back are straight, LOL! It's the third that goes astray.

Because I work Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays, Ellie and I most likely will never compete. I signed up for the rally classes to improve Ellie's confidence and get her to trust other dogs and to have a bonding experience with me. If she always backs-up crooked, oh well. At least she tries and with Ellie, that is a HUGE, HUGE, HUGE thing. Is anyone familiar with Sarah Mclachlan's song, "Ordinary Miracles?"

"It seems so exceptional
That things work out after all
It's just another ordinary miracle today"
Click to expand...

See its my 3rd step that always goes awry too. :lol:

Be careful you and Ellie might someday compete:smile2:. I used to say that about my dear departed Jazz. Her terrier want to eat other dogs was legendary as a young dog. I trained her all the way though half of utility(just not scent articles) just to get her to be comfortable with other dogs and to do something with her. At 5 yrs, she got her CGC(miracles do happen-nobody who knew her when I first got her thought that would happen) and at 9yrs she got her UKC/ASCA CD'. My friends who only knew her as an old dog didn't believe she used to be a basket case that ate other dogs.
 
Justicemom said:
See its my 3rd step that always goes awry too. :lol:

Be careful you and Ellie might someday compete:smile2:. I used to say that about my dear departed Jazz. Her terrier want to eat other dogs was legendary as a young dog. I trained her all the way though half of utility(just not scent articles) just to get her to be comfortable with other dogs and to do something with her. At 5 yrs, she got her CGC(miracles do happen-nobody who knew her when I first got her thought that would happen) and at 9yrs she got her UKC/ASCA CD'. My friends who only knew her as an old dog didn't believe she used to be a basket case that ate other dogs.
Click to expand...

LOL! Yes, never say never!
 
K9Queen said:
If you think so, but I disagree. The way I do it, it really is no worse than when a dog pulls on leash *shrug* I have a very sensitive little sheltie gal too, Sassy. This is done on a buckle collar and I am not pulling the dog back. I am putting backwards tension on the collar with the leash and waiting. It isnt done harshly or with a jerk. It is done to teach the dog to yield to pressure instead of their natural tendency to resist against it. The tension is released upon the first step back, the behavior is marked (verbal or clicker) and reward is given.... Far cry from correction based training in my book :winkgrin:

Different ways to teach lots of behaviors. However, teaching a back up while in front and not caring if they are straight is fine, depending on the venue you are teaching it for. For Rally-O, it is not done in front, but at heel and the dog needs to back up straight with you. Many ways to go about it. I was just presenting another.

Glad to hear you are getting the behavior you wanted when you first asked :)
Click to expand...

LOL
well, maybe my criteria is too low!!! lolll You obedience folks are so precision driven :rolleyes2::o LOL

I was re thinking what you said, and I apologize if I was a tad trigger happy with my response, sorry about that. I didn't mean to imply that you are choking any dogs!!! I do know that isn't what you meant :biggrin2:

I just feel so strongly that in this case it's better for Ms Ellie to be shaped (aka chair method, if possible) because of her history.
 
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