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Just got back from the vet
- Thread starter AngelinaL
- Start date
It's a plethora of information, knowledge and caring people. BIG GROUP HUG!
Ann
Moderator
It sounds like you really have a good handle on Hadley's issues and your vet is on top of things. That makes such a difference. I hope she's on the mend soon.
I've used milk thistle for years with my pups, whenever they take an antibiotic for anything or their immune systems are compromised. I really think it's a miracle supplement. SamE is another good one for many ailments, we've used that as well.
I'm glad you have a diagnosis and send good wishes and thoughts for you and Haley!
I've used milk thistle for years with my pups, whenever they take an antibiotic for anything or their immune systems are compromised. I really think it's a miracle supplement. SamE is another good one for many ailments, we've used that as well.
I'm glad you have a diagnosis and send good wishes and thoughts for you and Haley!
BarbV
Forums Celebrity
It's a plethora of information, knowledge and caring people. BIG GROUP HUG!
I did some googling on chronic inflammatory hepatis yesterday. From what I read, this is not a great prognosis, I'm really sorry to say.
When I first read the word "chronic" , my first reaction was ok, well, "chronic" can be managed with diet and supplements and drugs. My further reading was not so encouraging.
I think you need more info here from your vet, or perhaps another opinion. I don't think I would settle for this diagnosis and the treatment plan your vet has currently laid out.
Justice Mom/Dr. Quaig? Please step in here if I'm wrong?
Angelina - please feel free to PM me if you want to talk by phone, and we can arrange a call.
LadyMcBeth
Forums Enthusiast
Angelina,
I hope Haley is doing better. I am sorry I missed this tread for so long, but it sounds like you are in good hands. I sincerey hope this turns out for the best. I will add you and your beautiful dog to my prayers.
I hope Haley is doing better. I am sorry I missed this tread for so long, but it sounds like you are in good hands. I sincerey hope this turns out for the best. I will add you and your beautiful dog to my prayers.
The Quahog
Forums Enthusiast
It is difficult to add much because the liver is such a complex organ there are no easy answers, and as always I don't want to interfere in the treatment of a patient I have not seen and a veterinarian I have not spoken to. But perhaps we can define some terms and offer some explanations.
The term 'inflammatory hepatitis' is rather meaningless. '-itis' simply means 'inflammation of', as in arthritis (joints), dermatitis (skin) etc., so that basically just says 'inflammatory liver inflammation', and is not much to go on. However you mention 'cholangio hepatitis' and that is a little more specific.
Liver tissue itself (called parenchyma) is made of cells that have several complex functions - storing sugar,detoxifying poisons, producing bile etc. There are many conditions - bacterial or viral infection, intoxication,autoimmune- that will lead to inflamed liver tissue. So hepatitis is very complex.
However once the bile is produced it runs down collecting tubules running through the tissue called bile ducts, like streams leading to larger rivers, until it empties out via the common bile duct into the intestine. 'Cholangio' or 'bile-duct' hepatitis means inflammation not so much of the liver tissue itself but of these collecting tubules, and in most cases is either associated with an ascending infection (up the bile duct from the intestine) or stones. The 104 temp the history began with supports an acute infection, rather than some sort of chronic degenerative liver problem, however in an earlier post you mentioned chronic hepatitis as well, so apparently there are both short and long term issues here. Rechecking the extremely high liver enzymes next week, as you are doing, should give very useful information about the acute episode.
If no stones are found on ultrasound, in addition to the usual liver support to prevent bile stasis (that is keep the bile flowing), the main treatment would presumably be heavy duty antibiotics, as were immediately begun. Prednisone, or other forms of cortisone, is always a real 'therapeutic dilemma' in these cases. It controls the inflammation, which will prevent damage the healthy liver cells which is a major consideration, so it is often used in liver disease, but it also lowers the bodies resistance to infection. So that decision is tricky.
As all here, I wish Haley well and hope that helps, Dr. Mac
The term 'inflammatory hepatitis' is rather meaningless. '-itis' simply means 'inflammation of', as in arthritis (joints), dermatitis (skin) etc., so that basically just says 'inflammatory liver inflammation', and is not much to go on. However you mention 'cholangio hepatitis' and that is a little more specific.
Liver tissue itself (called parenchyma) is made of cells that have several complex functions - storing sugar,detoxifying poisons, producing bile etc. There are many conditions - bacterial or viral infection, intoxication,autoimmune- that will lead to inflamed liver tissue. So hepatitis is very complex.
However once the bile is produced it runs down collecting tubules running through the tissue called bile ducts, like streams leading to larger rivers, until it empties out via the common bile duct into the intestine. 'Cholangio' or 'bile-duct' hepatitis means inflammation not so much of the liver tissue itself but of these collecting tubules, and in most cases is either associated with an ascending infection (up the bile duct from the intestine) or stones. The 104 temp the history began with supports an acute infection, rather than some sort of chronic degenerative liver problem, however in an earlier post you mentioned chronic hepatitis as well, so apparently there are both short and long term issues here. Rechecking the extremely high liver enzymes next week, as you are doing, should give very useful information about the acute episode.
If no stones are found on ultrasound, in addition to the usual liver support to prevent bile stasis (that is keep the bile flowing), the main treatment would presumably be heavy duty antibiotics, as were immediately begun. Prednisone, or other forms of cortisone, is always a real 'therapeutic dilemma' in these cases. It controls the inflammation, which will prevent damage the healthy liver cells which is a major consideration, so it is often used in liver disease, but it also lowers the bodies resistance to infection. So that decision is tricky.
As all here, I wish Haley well and hope that helps, Dr. Mac
BarbV
Forums Celebrity
Dr Mac....
Angelina and I talk some yesterday and compare some notes. And there may be some common threads to our stories.
Bacca's medical issues started over 2 years ago when we got up one morning and his lower jowl was swollen like an orange.
There was no obvious cause of the swelling, but he was treated with anti-biotics, but there was conversion at that time of cancers. The swelling went down, but immediately after, Bacca went off his food. At the same time he went for a follow up and his blood counts were crazy. It was at this time that he was diagnosed as hypotyroid. The next test, 6 months later had his liver enzymes out of control. His ALT had soared to 641.
I changed his diet and his ALT came down as did his bile acids, but still above normal. Though his T4's are back within range.
I get him checked now about every 6 months. He is on Hepto-Support and Thyrotab.
He's due for another check.
So, after conversation with Angelina, I wonder about what caused all this? Seems her vet suggested that an infection caused liver damage. Given that Bacca's issues started with this mouth infection, it is possible that the same thing occured?
And if so, is the treatment that I'm on correct? I'm really starting to wonder. Is Bacca really hypothyroid?
I'm very torn here, and hope that I've made right choices so far. I've opted for not to aggressive treatment but the meds are expensive. I sometimes wonder if they are even necessary?????
Angelina and I talk some yesterday and compare some notes. And there may be some common threads to our stories.
Bacca's medical issues started over 2 years ago when we got up one morning and his lower jowl was swollen like an orange.
There was no obvious cause of the swelling, but he was treated with anti-biotics, but there was conversion at that time of cancers. The swelling went down, but immediately after, Bacca went off his food. At the same time he went for a follow up and his blood counts were crazy. It was at this time that he was diagnosed as hypotyroid. The next test, 6 months later had his liver enzymes out of control. His ALT had soared to 641.
I changed his diet and his ALT came down as did his bile acids, but still above normal. Though his T4's are back within range.
I get him checked now about every 6 months. He is on Hepto-Support and Thyrotab.
He's due for another check.
So, after conversation with Angelina, I wonder about what caused all this? Seems her vet suggested that an infection caused liver damage. Given that Bacca's issues started with this mouth infection, it is possible that the same thing occured?
And if so, is the treatment that I'm on correct? I'm really starting to wonder. Is Bacca really hypothyroid?
I'm very torn here, and hope that I've made right choices so far. I've opted for not to aggressive treatment but the meds are expensive. I sometimes wonder if they are even necessary?????
famous seamus
Forums Enthusiast
liver disease
Angelina,
So sorry truly sorry to hear what you have been going through. You are not alone.
Because of this great big wonderful Sheltie site, I have gathered so much information about my own boys liver failure. Dr. Dodds, liver cleanse diet is a life saver. my boy seamus was given a couple of weeks, Dr. Dodds diet gave him a life.
Just key in Dr. Dodds liver cleanse diet. It is comprised of fish, chicken potatos and vegetables. Our boy is doing great after nine months. This is a tried and true diet, Seamus is living proof. Along with meds, I hope that your precious baby does well. Once you start cooking, it will be a snap as you get the easy hang of it all.
Any questions, just leave me a message.
Best,
Kate
Angelina,
So sorry truly sorry to hear what you have been going through. You are not alone.
Because of this great big wonderful Sheltie site, I have gathered so much information about my own boys liver failure. Dr. Dodds, liver cleanse diet is a life saver. my boy seamus was given a couple of weeks, Dr. Dodds diet gave him a life.
Just key in Dr. Dodds liver cleanse diet. It is comprised of fish, chicken potatos and vegetables. Our boy is doing great after nine months. This is a tried and true diet, Seamus is living proof. Along with meds, I hope that your precious baby does well. Once you start cooking, it will be a snap as you get the easy hang of it all.
Any questions, just leave me a message.
Best,
Kate
The Quahog
Forums Enthusiast
Barb-
Of course I can not comment professionally about what is best in your particular case.
To address a couple of your questions - yes liver problems often start as a bacterial infection, then the question becomes how in heck did the patient get bacteria in his liver? Generally it is through the bloodstream from an infection elsewhere in the body, and periodontal type mouth infections are the commonest source. So that is definitely a possibility.
Thyroid medication should not be expensive, assuming that there were low thyroid values in the past and they responded it certainly seems reasonable to stick with that.
And if liver enzymes very very elevated in the past I am afraid that liver support in terms of denosyl or something similar also makes sense, though I realize that these are not cheap medications for long term maintenance.
- Dr. Mac
BarbV
Forums Celebrity
Thanks for this. I know that you cannot comment on individual cases, but you actually did confirm for me what none of my vets were able to do previously. And that is the potential root cause of Bacca's liver problems. That the mouth infection may have caused this.
Currently he's on hypo-tabs and hepto-support (milk thistle). It seems to be working but I won't know until he gets his next set of blood work in a few weeks.
I've not heard as denosyl as treatment. I will have to look into this. Meds are better than the more invasive treatments that my vets are talking about.
The next extrapolation I need to make is: the relationship between liver disease and liver shunt.....this part has me confused. I'll need to do more research.
One thing that is clear is that both Hayley and Bacca's root cause for liver problems may be due to mouth infections. That's good info for the forum.