loyal subjects

BYBs, while I would not say that they produce bad dogs, they just don't know what they're producing.

Some take the time to really do it right and research. It's few and far between, but there are some.

My concern with BYB's is that there are already way too many dogs in this country for the number of homes available. Statistics show that over half of the puppies sold are not kept for their life by the original buyer...and they typically end up in shelters

This is REALLY the problem. A BYB breeder who can't place pups easily stops producing as many or quits. This also is why I couldn't breed the Persian cats I showed. I worried myself sick that evey little one would be not cared for and then be dumped. I couldn't do it.
 
My most recent puppy search was carried out over the internet, but not in a shopping kind of way. I went and looked for breed club information in a certain area, contacted the "breeder referral" person in the club, and introduced myself, stating clearly what I was looking for and what my previous experience was with dogs. When I had some options (probably about 6 people with puppies in a multi-state area), I was able to talk to each one regarding their requirements, what their dogs were like, expected cost, etc. I was able to find someone who didn't require that I neuter on their timeline. It really helped though, that a breeder from my local area was able to vouch for me-- someone that my new breeder knew from the show circuit.

It is possible, but there's quite a bit of leg work involved.

As a side note, I recently discovered a "shelties available" facebook group, where people place both retiring show dogs and puppies.
 
Well, since everyone is putting their two cents in :hide

I personally make a mental distinction between "hobby breeders" and BYBs. Hobby breeders love the breed, might show a little or do rally or agility, but mainly love Shelties. They don't have the money or time to run with the big boys, but they enjoy involvement with clubs and dog-related activities. They wouldn't dream of breeding designer dogs, do all the right testing and vet checks, and place their puppies with care.

BYBs may keep their dogs in the house, and often claim to have hand-raised"pups, but they're cranking out puppies to sell. They do the bare minimum and never run the right tests for the breed.

To me, puppy mills are the folks who keep breeding dogs in cages and sell to the pet store market. If there's a particularly hot spot in hell, I hope they get it.
 
To me, puppy mills are the folks who keep breeding dogs in cages and sell to the pet store market. If there's a particularly hot spot in hell, I hope they get it.


Amen to that hope...even a hot spot in hell may be better than they deserve!

Trini
 
I agree. There are levels of involvement --

It's your entire world top notch best of the best, you are limited in scale but do it right nontheless, you got two and figure they can pay for their food & supplies by cranking out whatever quality puppes pop out, and then the monsters who are horrifying to even think about.

It's parallelled somewhat in the "rescue" world. You can get from a shelter who has every animal placed in foster and thoroughly vetted and with personalities understood by the foster and accurately offered to adopters, a no-kill but more impersonal and less thorough kind of route but we kinda know what you are getting, a city-type shelter with volunteers who do their best to give you a clue by setting aside the most adoptable and cleaning them up and trying to give them a chance out to find a home, and then mass county animal control peer in a cage save a life and good luck to you both.

But back to the OP -- yes, it's not like it used to be. Nothing is.
 
ok so you got your dog from a "puppy Mill" and your ok with that and supporting that? Your ok with knowing that both your dog and its dam spent its life in a wire cage will little human contact? The dam will never know the feel of dirt and grass on her feet? Or laying on a couch or even in her final moments human love?
Also not sure what you mean by you want to own your dog not rent it? Every breeder I know who sells their "pet" dogs sells them outright. HOWEVER, if the owners circumstances change to where they are not able to keep the dog we require that the dog come back to us (some breeders even reimburse you depending on situations) so it doesnt end up in a shelter. Is that what you mean by "renting"?! That we care where our dogs end up?!

Please. Notice that I qualified "puppy mill" as in "the loosest sense of the term."

I got Dickens from a nice retired person and her husband who breed and raise purebred puppies to sell as pets. At any one time they have around fifty puppies for sale, of various breeds, and some "designer" breeds. Their kennels are open to the public on a walk-in basis; I didn't need an appointment to come see the puppies and their parents. The kennels are large, spotless, air conditioned, heated, and probably the cleanest you'll find anywhere. Dickens's parents, while not the best representatives of the breed you'll ever see, were nonetheless beautiful and well-cared-for. All puppies were wormed and vaccinated on schedule; indeed, the owner wouldn't allow me to leave until Dickens had received the last of his vaccinations for which he was due on the day I got him.

My dog and his dam did not spend their lives in a wire cage with little human contact (quite the contrary, actually), nor experience any of the other horrors of true "puppy mills." But for all that, if you want to be really technical, this was either a very "nice" puppy mill, or a very extensive backyard breeder. I'm fine with that. I wanted a Sheltie as a pet, and there was a good, healthy one available. I don't breed dogs myself, and have no intention of Dickens ever breeding ... not that that would necessarily be bad, in my opinion. I have some very definite notions regarding canine eugenics, which don't jibe with majority opinion here, but that's another story.

I mean what I say regarding purchasing a puppy as opposed to renting one. I would assume my meaning is clear enough. Breeders who sell puppies under contract with extensive qualifications and ridiculous conditions aren't really transferring ownership of the animal. They consider the dog "theirs," and for the price stipulated in the contract are trying to get the buyer to handle "their" dog in the way they wish, with the proviso that the owner gets to pay for its upkeep and maintenance. Others may find that acceptable, but for my part, I don't.

However, if the breeder's only stipulation is that the dog come back to him if the owner doesn't want it, that's not too bad a deal, both for the purchaser and the owner. It preserves the owner's interest in the dog without any real cost to him, keeps him free to raise the dog as he sees fit, and gives the breeder some assurance that "his" dog won't end up in a bad place.
 
Just pulled out my one page contract for Hanna - it is pretty bare bones. The significant clauses are:

1. That I had to take her to a vet within 7 days of purchase, else the health guarantee is voided ( also if not in "perfect health" - undefined, I could return her for the full purchase or another puppy).

2. She is the offspring of genetically sound and selectively bred champion bloodlines who are in 'complete health' to the best knowledge of the breeder. Is being sold a s a companion or performance dog and may not be bred. Failure to comply will result in forfiture of offspring to the breeder.

It also list her dam & sire, microchip #, DOB, date & sticker from first vaccine and date dewormed.

Looking at it critically there are so many gaps as to make the thing useless.
Nothing is defined, terms are vague and can be interpreted pretty much any way. Beats me how this thing could ever be enforced or stand up if challenged.

The contract did not feature in my decision to purchase.

I spent two hours at the breeders, played with & observed the remaining 2 puppies. Saw the other 5 shelties she had on site, all were in great condition, well groomed and seemed well adjusted. I could see that the pups had been raised in the house and were very well socialized - that held true as Hanna is not at all timid or easily scared. I spoke at length with the breeder and while she is not currently showing ( looked to me very much like she is winding down after about 20 years breeding & showing) and was not planning another litter. Still it was clear to me that she fell short of what some here would consider a reputable breeder. She will not take Hanna back past the first year ( but will help with placement if needed), she does not do heartworm prevention or vaccinnate her dogs , other than rabies, as that is necessary to travel across the border where she co owns some dogs. Her advice was that she has personally never had a dog who developed heartworm but that I should decide what I wanted for my pup. I suspect the decison was at least partially financially based as she was feeding Proplan. She asked some questions and steered me towards Hanna, based on personality, versus the pup I had come to see , but left the decision to me.

I would put her in the class of a responsible and small hobby breeder ( she currently has no puppies or breedings planned). Not a puppy mill by my definition even though I located her initially through an ad placed on Kijiji, but I can also see where she would fall short in the view of some here. We have kept in touch and she likes getting pics of Hanna.

As in all things Buyer beware.
 
I can understand the breeder comment about renting a dog rather than owning outright. I have no problem with spay/neuter by a certain time and not being able to list puppies as AKC registered if you do go against it. I also think that the taking the dog back and giving it a home to go to if you are unable to take care of it anymore policy is great and makes sure that the dog always has a good home.

However, when looking for my last sheltie I came across a breeder who I felt was a little too controlling. She told me that I was required to buy a $200 reverse osmosis water system and use the exact food she recommended even though my current shelties were already drinking filtered water and were on a 4 star-rated food by a brand that hadn't been recalled multiple times like hers had. I completely understand breeders wanting the best for their puppies, but that's going too far, IMO. It made my choice between two breeders really easy.
 
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