Males fighting

Tabitha

Tabitha

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I've been having more problems with F-kap and Jody not getting along than I can stand. It's starting to really scare me the way they're behaving. They've never really gotten along the best, but the most of they're arguments have been growling, barking, and maybe a not so playful nip on the bottom here and there. When ever this happens I separate them and let them settle down before I put them together again. But it's gotten really bad over the past year. Now they get into actual FIGHTS!:eek2: I'm so scared they're going to hurt each other. I decided to neuter Jody last October (F-kap has been neutered for about 8 years now) in hopes it would settle things down a bit, it hasn't.

Today was really bad. My brother moved in with me a few months ago because he was in a car accident and couldn't work (the problems started long before then). We started messing around a bit and play fighting like brothers and sisters do, and it set Jody off. He started barking at my brother thinking he was hurting me. Then F-kap jumped on Jody and started biting his shoulder. I managed to pick him up but F-kap wouldn't let go for the longest time. When he finally did Sarah ran up and barked at him once and he turned on her too! He's NEVER done that!

I just don't know what to do. It's usually always F-kap who starts it. Sometimes Jody does provoke him, but not always, and only at times he thinks he'll be threatened. And it's not just situations like this. Jody could be running around the yard playing, or barking at the trash truck, or playing chase with me or one of the other dogs, and F-kap will just snap and attack him.

I just don't know what to do. I've tried all the positive behavior training I can think of and nothings working. I thought maybe F-kap could have medical issues in his old age, so I took him to the vet and, aside from having poor hips, he had a complete clean bill of health. They're both the sweetest dogs and are both my life.
 
I agree with Hanne - pain can cause behavioural problems: there was a study done that found a large proportion of dogs with aggression issues actually have pain issues. Some other interesting research has found that past behaviours will influence the way that pain aggression manifests. For example, my Tully used to be fearful of other dogs (from early dog attacks), but had been fine for some years. Then she relapsed and would go into meltdown at other dogs, and particularly dogs larger than her. It all made sense when her hip arthritis was finally diagnosed. She lapsed into earlier aggressive behaviours when she was in pain.

High energy games/activities can also bring out aggression. I know Tully would go into meltdown when other dogs played near her. She was scared of being bumped or knocked and that would come out as aggression. Plus generally, pain can make them very short tempered and irritable.

So perhaps F-Kap is taking his aggression out on Jody because he did in the past, and it's escalating because his pain is too (and you're in winter so may be even sorer).

Have another talk with your vet. Maybe try some pain relief for F-Kap and see if that makes a difference to his behaviour with Jody. If it does then you'll know that's the problem. Short of this, I don't think there's any other way of finding out if it's pain aggression.
 
I totally agree on the comments/suggestions you have gotten from Hanne and Caro.

Bad hips are extremely painful and can take a real toll on a doggie which can show up in aggressive and impatient behavior. I would try a vet recommended strong pain reliever F-Kap and also if possible a room that is his to spend time in when excitement levels get high and you know may trigger his negative behavior.

Trini
 
Thanks for the advise. He's on Cosequin DS Maximum strength. My vet was happy with it and told me it was one of, if not the best I could get locally. But I'm wondering if it's good enough. I know he's in a lot more pain than normal. Sometimes I see him slightly limp or stumble, and he no longer tries to jump on the bed. Used to he would wait til I stood next to the bed and was ready for him to jump, then I'd push him up the rest of the way. This being Texas, our winter has been a bit unsteady. Weather here can go from sun shining and warm then snowing bitterly cold in the same week and has several times this year. Our last snow fall just melted two days ago and last I heard it's supposed to get up to 80 tomorrow. I enjoy winters like this, but I can't imagine the temps fluctuating so dramatically is good for F-kap.:no: Would giving him some more light exercise help? Maybe increasing his walks a bit? I have arthritis in my ankle, and when I stay inactive it usually hurts more. Of course my arthritis is from injury, his is from age.

But what confuses me is, to F-kap, Ida can do no wrong. She is a perfect little angel who could get away with murder in his eyes. She jumps on him constantly, plays with him, steals toys, and even food if she's brave enough. And yet he's never bit, growled, or even raised a lip at her. If anything he encourages the behavior, and enjoys every minute of it. This just confuses the heck out of me! Sure Jody is 23lbs (about the same as F-kap) and petite little Ida is only 13lbs, but still, it's so different the way he treats her. You can tell he loves her very much. It makes me wonder how he could be so nervous about Jody even being near him and the reason is that he's in pain, but not Ida who jumps all over him like a crazed little puppy and he enjoys it!

Another theory I had is a dominance issue. F-kap and Jody will go back and forth marking the same tree over and over. Last night they did this until Jody just got sick and tired of it and actually push F-kap away from the tree. Not hard, he was very careful not to hurt him, but his intention was clear. They're also protective of there food, but only with each other. For instance, F-kap can and does eat just fine with Sarah and Ida right by his side, same with Jody and the girls. But they growl at each other constantly when food is involved even when they're in a separate room. They'll stand at the door or doggie gate and just growl. And it lasts for about 15 to 20 minutes even after the food is gone. Of course it never let them just stand there and growl, I make them lay down in they're beds until tempers settle.
 
I have a similar situation with Melli & Shay. They really don't care for each other. Before Cubby they really had some go rounds over food, petting, toys, walking out the door, anything. Since Cubby came, they both adore him and it seems to diffuse the situation a lot. Cubby has also learned to draw the two away from something -- he is my great distractor.

I just learned the things that cause Melli & Shay the most stress and adapt. We are all fed separated, rollicking play is limited, petting is equal, etc. I have thought about letting Melli stay with my Mom for awhile but she loves the pup an awful lot and then she had a nasty urinary infection which I am watching to make sure doesn't return.

You will just have to do detective work -- what are the triggers and try to manage them -- from health to jealousy to whatever you see.
 
Tabitha - Mail dogs will have a much patience with a female dog, and usually will not hurt her.

Males can have a very short fuse when they can not agree on the ranking.
And if the old dog has extremely pain, then the younger dog maybee see the old dog as weak.
 
Tabitha said:
Thanks for the advise. He's on Cosequin DS Maximum strength. My vet was happy with it and told me it was one of, if not the best I could get locally. But I'm wondering if it's good enough. I know he's in a lot more pain than normal.
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Cosequin is fine as a supplement, but it won't take the pain away. Think of it like when you have the flu. A vitamin supplement will boost your own system to fight the disease, but it won't stop the aches and fever. For that you'll need panadol for the fever or nurofen for the aches. So Cosequin may help slow down the progression of arthritis, but it won't take any of the pain away. For that you'll need an anti-inflammatory like Metacam, Previcox or Rimadyl, for straight pain relief there's Tramadol.

Have a look at Fasb's Owner's thread on Metacam. He's been going through the same thing lately with getting stronger pain relief for Fasb. http://www.sheltieforums.com/showthread.php?t=22553
 
Caro said:
Cosequin is fine as a supplement, but it won't take the pain away.
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I agree, and I'd suggest you find another vet.
Anyone with the least amount of medical training would tell you that glucosamine and chondroitin are not pain relievers.

At a minimum, I would call your vet's office and see if they would at least give you the go-ahead to start aspirin daily for a short duration to see if that helps.
If it does, then you will want to get an Rx for NSAID.

Coated aspirin with food if OK'd for your pet is probably $5 at the drugstore vs immediately starting with an $$ NSAID Rx that may or may not ultimately be the problem.

And, since I've bothered to reply, check you local farm/feed shop for DMSO. Pain from inflammation will disappear, and again it is very safe, and probably $8.
 
Welcome to my world.

I have a dog who is an a**hole. There is no getting around it. River walks around with his tail up, snarling at anything that gets near him, or even dogs who aren't near him. He has settled down some since I got a third male, because that male doesn't mess around. He's figured out that someone can and will kick his butt. The baby boy is 17" and 30 pounds of muscle, and is the least confrontational dog ever, until he needs to defend himself. He has put a 60 pound Pyr mix puppy on his back, and yes, I let him, the puppy needed it. River snarls at the girls, and they ignore him.

Anyway, add to the differential diagnosis that he pees all over my house every evening (he fills two full overnight incontinence pads per evening), he does not do that elsewhere, and that he would never dream of doing any of this in public. When he's out of the crate at a trial or on a walk, he is a perfect gentleman.

Bloodwork is perfect, urinalysis is perfect, OFA excellent, neutered. There is nothing physically wrong with him. Anxiety? Possible. I know that his sire and grandsire have severe anxiety issues, so maybe I got a different expression of the same anxiety ridden gene set. I've thought about anti-anxiety meds as a trial, just to see if the behavior is anxiety based, even if it's not typical.

Anyway, I feel your pain, but I have no help to offer, because I can't fix it in my own house.

BTW, I placed River temporarily, and he was a perfect only dog.
 
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