Measurement Standards

[Calliesmom]

Only a handful of trials hold them. Around here, the cluster was one, and the Cleveland one is the other. It adds some nice challenge. Breakdown in height is really weird. Anything under 13.75" is 14", 13.75-16.75" is 18", and everything else is 26"
Kai is a 12" dog but did 18" in the past in ISC with some nice combined placements. Athena did 14" and won.

ackkkk- I balked at Cran jumping 22" in USDAA- no way we'd do 26"

 

[Hurtseverywhere]

I have never gotten an accurate measurement using the slide device my guys won't Stand for it ( no pun intended), we almost always end up using U wickets on them <12 >16 which they seem to accept better both methods are accepted here and are require to be available to the Judge. I know Cosmo is 14.25 and Storm is 13.5 from my own measurements taken at home when they are not under duress. I agree with the measuring process being usually rushed and last minute at most trials, with the Judges scrambling to try to get everyone in before the event starts a lot of times but I can't think of a better alternative.

Digital readout is a good idea for sure less room for interpretation,

How about this for a totally off the wall idea. all competing dogs must be micro chipped and have a vet certified X- ray taken at 18 Months and again a 2 years of age this X ray is to have the Microchip ID on it, height measurement to be determined by the top of shoulder to flat paw distance measured off the Xray and marked on the X ray as well, all competitors are required to provide this Xray at the registration check in desk of the competition and have the dog scanned to confirm Dogs ID. before competition commences, No x- ray or Microchip no Compete. I know totally overkill but just a thought.

Disadvantages : Cost

Advantages: If adopted as a world measuring standard you could show at any trial anywhere in the world show your x-ray get your dog scanned and be ready to go.

Dog Id is confirmed by the microchip
Height is confirmed by the X-ray and vet certification
removes all onus of measuring off of the judges.

I know pretty radical .

 

[helps]

I agree with you. It's really sad when I see dogs that are obviously much taller than they should be for medium category. As you said it's not so much about competition, but about the rules that everyone should follow. But yea, it sure puts smaller dogs who are rightfully in small/medium category in disadvantage if some way bigger dog gets "smuggled" into the same category. It is an issue over here, too so it'd be really nice if the rules were the same for everyone.

 

[Sealtainn]

As much as we'd hope that agility was fun and equally fair for everyone it is sadly not so in so many ways.
When you get oversized dogs in to a particular height category then if they are competitive you will often see that equated to more efficient striding - for jump heights for shelties I can count the # of strides different dogs take & those oversized dogs often take at least one less than typical. Over a course that equates to a measurable time advantage. Sometimes it indicates an oversized dog or one legitimately at the upper end of the height class -- but other times it is just that that dogs structure & fitness levels allows for a longer stride.

I'm not sure there is a perfect solution or one that holds clear advantages over another without introducing other inequalities.
Personally I'm of the opinion of preferring an elbow measurement rather than withers but I'm sure that would ruffle the feathers of some influential to decision makers.
I have seen the ASCA/NADAC pac wickets, and in the measurement of withers found that to be a much more efficient & less time-consuming means of qualifying dogs for the height class they belong in. But I'm sure it can be worked just as much by savvy owners.

 

[Silaria]

I've started a reply to this thread about three different times because I have two different comments for it, one as a competitor and one as a trial judge. (For those who don't know, I'm a certified judge for TDAA.)

I have seen measuring period rushed and there is no reason for it to be. The premium states measuring starts 30 minutes before the general briefing. At our local shows there are not normally more than 5 dogs to be measured so there is absolutely NO reason to rush through it.

As a competitor, I have two borderline dogs; CJ moreso than Edan by 1/4". I WANT a lower measurement for CJ so she can jump 8" Preferred in AKC (12" Regular height). There are judges in the area who know how to manipulate how the dog stands to get a lower measurement on a borderline dog and ALL the regular competitors know who they are. Is it fair, no, I agree with that; but, having a borderline height dog, I appreciate a judge trying to shave 1/4" off the measurement so my dog can jump at the lower height. I WOULD NOT want to see a dog clearly 1-2 inches taller cheated into the lower jump height.

Now, if I put my judge's hat on...
I can honestly say measuring is one of the things a really don't enjoy doing. If you think it's stressful on the competitor, trying being the judge doing the measurement. Dogs are simply NOT taught how to handle the measuring wicket. When you have a skittish rescue dog, it can be a real struggle to get a good measurement, and I KNOW where the shoulder blades are on a dog.

Personally, I prefer the U-shaped wickets for measuring; TDAA allows a swing arm measuring tool or the U-shaped wickets. TDAA doesn't require an exact measurement like AKC or USDAA. If you put the 12 inch wicket on the dog and it touches the ground, try the 8" wicket. If the 12" wicket doesn't touch ground, the dog jumps 16" (the maximum jump height in TDAA so no need for a 16" wicket).

Part of the Judge's training for TDAA is measuring dogs. We use our own dogs and take turns measuring them. There is also a full trial associated with the Judge's Clinic so we are responsible for measuring dogs there as well.


Overall, agility really does not require a spot on height measurement regardless of venue. A set of U wickets at the sizes for the top end of the jump heights would really give you all the information you need and often with a lot less stress on the dog. For AKC's ISC venue, a special set of U wickets would be needed for times when those courses are offered.

 

[helps]

As much as we'd hope that agility was fun and equally fair for everyone it is sadly not so in so many ways.
When you get oversized dogs in to a particular height category then if they are competitive you will often see that equated to more efficient striding - for jump heights for shelties I can count the # of strides different dogs take & those oversized dogs often take at least one less than typical. Over a course that equates to a measurable time advantage. Sometimes it indicates an oversized dog or one legitimately at the upper end of the height class -- but other times it is just that that dogs structure & fitness levels allows for a longer stride.

You're right about that # of strides, it make huge difference. I know bigger/longish dogs that are very efficient in their movement. They don't look like they're running fast at all, but in the end they get amazing times. It really makes the big difference the way the dog moves. Question for everyone - do you think you can 'teach' the dog to improve his stride so he's moving more efficinetly?

 

[2GoodDogs]

Wow, glad I read this. I have access to a swing arm wicket and will start teaching this to Justus and to baby puppy when she comes...

Justus is easy, all I've have to do is show him the chicken liver... and I would dearly love to get a solid for real measurement. My awkward attempts have him from 19 to 22"....

In obedience I jump him at 20", in rally 16" just to err on the size of a little too high rather than to low.

So, I need three measurements for AKC - right? Can I be measured even if we are not entered?

 

[Calliesmom]

Wow, glad I read this. I have access to a swing arm wicket and will start teaching this to Justus and to baby puppy when she comes...

Justus is easy, all I've have to do is show him the chicken liver... and I would dearly love to get a solid for real measurement. My awkward attempts have him from 19 to 22"....

In obedience I jump him at 20", in rally 16" just to err on the size of a little too high rather than to low.

So, I need three measurements for AKC - right? Can I be measured even if we are not entered?

yes, you can be measured even if not entered, after dog is 2 yrs old, two official measurements will get your permanent height card....

 

[melbell]

Honey's measurement was always accurate to what I got, but Ruutu I measured him at 18 1/4 and the judge got him at 17 3/4ths and so did his breeder... I'm hoping his 2 yr old measurement stays under 18. We'll see! Though I do see your point in 16" being such a big difference because with him at almost 18" he has much more of an advantage than a 15 1/2" dog.

 

[Sealtainn]

Question for everyone - do you think you can 'teach' the dog to improve his stride so he's moving more efficinetly?

IMO yes, you can.
OTOH, results may vary depending on the dog.
Structure may be a limiting factor.
Current fitness level may affect time frame.