Merle to Merle Breeding is Ok as Long as You're Ok With the Outcome??

[mbfrench]

Some very good points brought up in this discussion.

And you all know I own a deaf/blind double merle. I often ask myself..what would the breeder had done,if the rescue was not available,or did not know what to do with all of the puppies in Mia's litter. We know one did not survive.

From our understanding,this breeder said it was a mistake. He blatently lied saying they were sable to sable. He had dealing with Cullens in prior litters he surrenderd. So I don't know if those litters were also deaf/blind or both.

He disgusts me,actually. Now..what I do know is that he is a person with not much upstairs,and not playing with a full deck.

The guy is still breeding shelties.And he will continue to breed them. There is nothing in statutes of NC law that will or can shut him down. He is doing it,and will continue until he gets a pup that is not deformed.

I do not agree,and nothing will change my mind about merle to merle breedings. It is playing russion roulette with the outcome.I don't care how versed you are,it stinks,and it should not happen.

Look at Duncan,he is sighted. But had severe internal deformaties when it came time to neuter him. One never knows.

We know & accept our pups for what they are. I don't read about many breeders (and I have come across a few on FB that wanted to be friends) that took the responsibility of a whole litter deaf & blind..

Then they have the gall to throw thier new litters in my face. Boasting about.."how beautiful".. and we "hope" they are going to be ok. That's bull****.

No one has the right to be messing with genetics.I don't care if its' the most beautiful double merle..sighted & hearing that walked the face of the earth. No one has the right,since the outcome is usually not in favor of those innocent puppies,that most are culled & euthanized.

They may not be long on this earth,but what I do know..while they are here we will give them the best quality of life possible. At least I know that for sure.

I was once approached by some idiot at a flea market.I had Mia with me. The twit said to me...what would happen if she was bred to another white dog? now mind you,this is some hick selling puppies from the back of his truck bed. So obviously they are out there. They want a quick buck on white dogs,with pink noses & ears.
I gave him a piece of my mind,and told him,he had better get his fat *** off the property,as I was dialing 911 as I talked to him. Thats' a puppy mill or broker. It's my right,and I used my right to report him.
Thank you to most of you that totally see it as it should be.
Not done,thats how it should be.

 

[ClantyreSheltie]

Calling 911 because someone is ignorant is most certainly a waste of emergency resources. 911 is generally used when ones life is in danger. Why not simply tell him the truth?

And yes, we all play in genetics, even those of us that breed non-double Merle dogs. Saying nobody has that "right" relegates all breeders to the same level.

It's interesting to hear the outrage to double merles. We stand here and scream about how unfair it is to intentionally produce deaf/blind dogs, but it's done all the time in other breeds. Some breeds are intentionally bred with deformities and severe, known medical issues. At least we can say the issues that come with double merles are the result of color genes, and not a breed characteristic.

 

[mbfrench]

Calling 911 because someone is ignorant is most certainly a waste of emergency resources. 911 is generally used when ones life is in danger. Why not simply tell him the truth?

And yes, we all play in genetics, even those of us that breed non-double Merle dogs. Saying nobody has that "right" relegates all breeders to the same level.

It's interesting to hear the outrage to double merles. We stand here and scream about how unfair it is to intentionally produce deaf/blind dogs, but it's done all the time in other breeds. Some breeds are intentionally bred with deformities and severe, known medical issues. At least we can say the issues that come with double merles are the result of color genes, and not a breed characteristic.

Calling the authorites in a remote place as where flea markets are held is the only way to get them there. So using the 911 system WAS the avenue to use. Confronting a person myself only opens up something I will not do.(people carry firearms here) and will think nothing of flashing it at you.

Some don't understand when I say "remote" area,I mean remote. Thats why these scums try selling to people. Imagine the payout when they sell one puppy at 1,500..for a space cost of only $7.00.

As far as giving him a piece of my mind,don't worry he got it.
Brokers here in this town,and surrounding towns are an in your face buiseness

I worked feverishly to remove a broker that was selling on a bust street intersection right here in my town.

 

[KarenCurtis]

Calling 911 because someone is ignorant is most certainly a waste of emergency resources. 911 is generally used when ones life is in danger. Why not simply tell him the truth?

And yes, we all play in genetics, even those of us that breed non-double Merle dogs. Saying nobody has that "right" relegates all breeders to the same level.

Yes, education is key. To educate people about genetic dangers in an unemotional way is more effective, I think. And unfortunately, people have the right to do many things. I have a friend who has a down syndrome son, and when she learned she was a carrier, her next child was conceived through genetic intervention so it would not happen again- but she certainly had the right to have another down syndrome baby.

It's interesting to hear the outrage to double merles. We stand here and scream about how unfair it is to intentionally produce deaf/blind dogs, but it's done all the time in other breeds. Some breeds are intentionally bred with deformities and severe, known medical issues. At least we can say the issues that come with double merles are the result of color genes, and not a breed characteristic.

We could and should direct our education and outrage at an equal level to the purposeful breeding of english bulldogs.

 

[Mikos_Mom]

they purposely mis-bred.

This is the key of this entire argument. Of course anomalies and defects occur frequently in nature (both human and animal) and that's life.

Many sick or handicapped children are born to parents who later find that they both carry some strange gene that only when paired with another of the same genes will produce _____ children. Wow... what were the chances? Bummer!! These parents both happened to carry that bad gene, didn't know it and now their lives are forever changed by the child that they've had.

That's completely different than KNOWING there's a good chance a certain breeding pair will produce puppies with defects and handicaps and going ahead and doing it anyway!!

And unlike humans who may choose to take the risk and life with the consequences (because they love each other and because they're a family)... Dog breeders are "fanciers" of the breed. It makes my stomach turn to think that for no better reason than wanting a certain quality or trait in your "collection" of dogs you would go ahead and do a merle to merle breeding.

It's beyond unethical and it puts into question your true love of the breed and animals in general.

As for breeds that have been deformed by their own breed standard (smushed in noses that can't breathe... slanted hind legs that can barely walk... etc) ... I find that equally disgusting... but that's an issue for a different thread.

 

[MissSuzie]

It's interesting to hear the outrage to double merles. We stand here and scream about how unfair it is to intentionally produce deaf/blind dogs, but it's done all the time in other breeds. Some breeds are intentionally bred with deformities and severe, known medical issues. At least we can say the issues that come with double merles are the result of color genes, and not a breed characteristic.

I don't know why you think it's interesting to hear the outrage to double merles when it's "done all the time" in other breeds. This thread happens to be about breeding double merles, not about other breeds. If it were about other breeds being intentionally mid-bred, I would be equally outraged.

Any breeder intentionally taking a quantified risk of breeding puppies with severe disabilities is, in my opinion, an unethical monster playing God with sweet innocent animals. I would not buy a dog from them, double merle or otherwise, and I would not allow any dog I owned to be bred with any of theirs, regardless of the quality of the stud or bitch in question. Why anyone would add financially to their breeding program is beyond me.

 

[SheltieLuver]

I was once approached by some idiot at a flea market.I had Mia with me. The twit said to me...what would happen if she was bred to another white dog? now mind you,this is some hick selling puppies from the back of his truck bed. So obviously they are out there. They want a quick buck on white dogs,with pink noses & ears.
I gave him a piece of my mind,and told him,he had better get his fat *** off the property,as I was dialing 911 as I talked to him. Thats' a puppy mill or broker. It's my right,and I used my right to report him.
Thank you to most of you that totally see it as it should be.
Not done,thats how it should be.

One question here? How did you know this guy was a puppy broker? Could he have possibly been a father of children who's pet mutt "accidentally" got with the neighbor's mutt and he was just trying to find the resulting puppies a home? I'm not saying this is right... but it does happen... look at all the mixed breeds out there... and under the circumstances of an uneducated person, you do have to give them credit for tying to find the puppies a home in the best way they know how. The question about the double merle breeding... he may possibly was just quite interested and really didn't know any better.
You may have known the real reason behind these questions without a doubt, but under the possibility it was not known it is our job to educate rather than judge.

 

[LunaBear87]

I don't really care for breeders who just breed merle pups, because there's such a market out there for them and want to get rich off the dogs own well being. I have some mixed feelings about my boy's breeder, I think she meant well in her efforts. As most of you know my boys are both double merles I believe. Luna is deaf but Ashlee has full use of all of his extremities. But I don't believe the breeder was trying to breed double merles, it just happened by accident. When I talked to her on the phone before she dropped them off with me, she told me that she was taking her CHW Bi Blue sire, and was mating it with her Bi Black bitch and was trying to breed bi Blacks but she said she was surprised after the first 2 came out that one of them turned out to be a CHW Bi Blue. She said then that she went and looked at the family tree to see how thic ould have happened, and she said that their Mother's father was a CHW Bi Blue. So my guess is that when it came to Ash and Luna, she really had no idea that Trixie (their mother) was actually a carrier of the merle gene, and bred her with their father who also has it, and that's how they came to be. Of course when I found out that Luna was deaf I was upset, but anyway the point that I'm trying to make is that deliberate breeding double merles is definitely wrong, but sometimes mistakes can happen.

http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j343/LunaBear879/303108_637589804799_203803754_33581547_1319523020_n.jpg

My Luna Bear being cute as usual!

 

[BarbV]

I know I know nothing about breeding, but thought I would put perhaps a pretty controversial question out there.

I understand that breeding merle to merle can create birth defects. But breeding sable to sable or tri to tri does not.

Is there something congenitically wrong with merles to begin with? And should we be perhaps breeding away from merles entirely as a result?

I never took biology in school so I know little about genes and chromosones, etc. but, in other words, what negative trait is inherent in merles that gets magnified when bred together? And if it is a bad fault, shouldn't we be trying to breed it out altogether?

Apologies in advance to merle fans (I personally love them too, and have always wanted one), but I just have to ask.

 

[ClantyreSheltie]

Is there something congenitically wrong with merles to begin with?

Not necessarily.

And should we be perhaps breeding away from merles entirely as a result?

Some would agree with this statement.

And if it is a bad fault, shouldn't we be trying to breed it out altogether?

So Merle is tricky. First, it is a relatively unstable gene. Second, there are different "levels" of merle. I can't find the article right now, but basically, imagine merle ranging from a dark, steel color, to this light silver we have now, and lots of variations in-between. For years, I have heard that the lighter the merles are getting, and the lighter the base color gets, the more incidences of deafness we have. The lighter we go, the more recessive the genes, which means that we can't get back to those dark merles, since they are gone.

Think of merle as a scale of 0-100, where 50 produces a regular merle, and 75 produces a double merle. Dogs can carry a number of 30 or 40 without expressing it. Then, you add that (a dog you thought was solid) to a 50 (a known merle), and suddenly you have a double merle. Or the double merle, with a 75, only passes on 45 to it's offspring, and that offspring gets nothing from it's other parent. Then you have a solid dog from a double merle. Both of those things have happened. They are possible, just not probable. That is the danger of merle. Also, when breeders breed what are commonly called "cryptic" merles, they are playing in dangerous waters. That is the most recessive of the merle varieties, and how can they really trust what they get??

Then add in Irish Spotting, Piebald (the extreme version we see in Dals, which have deafness issues), and our own version of "white-factoring" (which produces true CHW dogs). We have a lot of dilution in our breed, and there is a hypothesis out there that if we started to actually test the regular blue merles, we would find more unilateral deaf dogs than we think. Dogs are super good at compensating, right?

In some breeds, even a single dose of merle is devastating, and in some double merles are normal, and they have to test for it because they can't even tell (Danes come to mind).