Merle to Merle Breeding is Ok as Long as You're Ok With the Outcome??

Phebe*DD · Nov 20, 2011

seashel said:
Just one more thing to consider, blue merle isn't an 'original' sheltie colour and wasn't present in the small island dogs. It was deliberatly introduced into shetland sheepdogs when crosses were done with collies, possibly with the specific intention of producing blue merle shelties as well as improving type. Presumably, producing something new and striking that appealed to the public was as appealing then as it is today!

Good point. When it comes to breeding practices, we need to remember that the Shelties we have today were created by many crosses and periods of intense line-breeding.

From Sue Ann Bowling's web site:
Collie Crosses behind Shetland Sheepdogs

BarbV · Nov 20, 2011

It's a tough line to cross.

Understanding that every new breed is bred through trial and experimentation. At the same time, knowing that the merle gene is not necessarily a good gene in Shelties. Today. But could it be in the future?

Its a little like the trend towards toy or teacup Shelties. Are they an abomination today? Certainly! But poodles started large size and have been gradually bred smaller and smaller so that there are now many accepted poodles sizes.

I know I'm arguing both sides of my mouth.

SheepOfBlue · Nov 20, 2011

tofu pup said:
...
Now, it appears (and would make sense) that the first priority is on producing neural crest cells that will produce the brain and spinal cord (because you're not going to make it out of the womb without those); the "leftovers" become pigment cells. So a one-copy merle dog has enough neural crest cells to build a functioning brain, functioning eyes, and functioning ears - they just lose out on some pigment-producing cells, so you get a dog with a diluted coat color.

...

So it is true us Sables have more brains :winkgrin:

Sca

Justicemom · Nov 20, 2011

BarbV said:
It's a tough line to cross.

Understanding that every new breed is bred through trial and experimentation. At the same time, knowing that the merle gene is not necessarily a good gene in Shelties. Today. But could it be in the future?

Its a little like the trend towards toy or teacup Shelties. Are they an abomination today? Certainly! But poodles started large size and have been gradually bred smaller and smaller so that there are now many accepted poodles sizes.

I know I'm arguing both sides of my mouth.

I have no issues with Blues. There are just as vigorous as their black littermates. However, if one delves into breeding them one needs to know what they are doing.

One trend that does disturb me is the movement towards these really light merles who are so light at birth that you can't tell if they are white or not as well as dominos. We really need to get away from these dilution or we will start to see issues in even our regular merles.

This is a very good article for those interested in merles to read.
http://everythingsheltie.com/theoriesofcolor.html

SheepOfBlue said:
So it is true us Sables have more brains

Sca

Ember says "Hey!!

"

Lightplum · Nov 20, 2011

Justicemom said:
I have no issues with Blues. There are just as vigorous as their black littermates. However, if one delves into breeding them one needs to know what they are doing.

One trend that does disturb me is the movement towards these really light merles who are so light at birth that you can't tell if they are white or not as well as dominos. We really need to get away from these dilution or we will start to see issues in even our regular merles.

This is a very good article for those interested in merles to read.
http://everythingsheltie.com/theoriesofcolor.html

Ive read that article quite a few years ago...I wish they had pics to go along with it...I would love to see the older colors..

I also agree with the more you dilute the colors the more auto-immune issues you are going to see pop up!

BarbV · Nov 20, 2011

A great read! Though more than a lay person like I can absorb.

Mikos_Mom · Nov 20, 2011

Lightplum said:
Ive read that article quite a few years ago...I wish they had pics to go along with it...I would love to see the older colors..

I also agree with the more you dilute the colors the more auto-immune issues you are going to see pop up!

If you google or just go straight to pedigreelines.com, you can see some photos of the dogs mentioned in the article.

ClantyreSheltie · Nov 20, 2011

That was the article I was looking for, but her website seems to be MIA. Most excellent.

HopeShelties · Nov 20, 2011

A friend of mine has what I believe is one of the few remaining really dark blue shelties. I realize she isn't a conformation dog, but it's nice to see one that is one of the more correct shades. Shame we seem to have lost it. I for one think it's actually a very nice color.
http://moriahshelties.com/images/dogs/tara.jpg
Yes, her body is truly that dark. Her face I believe used to be darker as well, but she has grayed out more, and just celebrated her 17th birthday.
Cheryl Anderson has seen her pictures, and refers to her as a steel blue. She is a nice clear blue with no rustiness as is often seen in the pewter shade (have one of those here myself). Her sister, who was just lost last year at 16, and their sire were both of similar color

Narmowen · Nov 20, 2011

Sally (the tripod) was that color (the dark pewter/steel). So was her grand-uncle. Her grandsire, dam and brother are all the lighter silver. Luke is a very even silver, Molly (his dam) is a medium silver.