Merle to Merle Breeding is Ok as Long as You're Ok With the Outcome??

To me the american shelties and English shelties are so different I can hardly believe they are the same breed at first :p I wonder what happens when a judge who is used to US type shelties has to judge in Europe. The europe type head shape is different, and more delicate. I can tell the difference even as an amateur in shelties.
 
No I do not believe that because where does it stop.

You(breeders) aren't intellgent enough or responsible enough to police yourselves and develop good breeding programs. All purebred dogs have problems so therefore all dog breeding must be made illegal and that is the end of the domestic dog.

If you do not think that is how the anti dog breeding supporters think, you are wrong.

Once again, spot on.

We are facing this 'outside' regulation right now here in the UK and it does seem to be something which is spreading world wide. I know we're talking about merles here, but I would argue the same thing goes for many other aspects of dog breeding. For example, breeding dogs with pendulous ears such as spaniels isn't usually percieved to be a problem, but when taken down gradually more extreme routes so that the ears become longer and longer and more and more low set, then it does start becoming a welfare issue. Same goes for breeding for shorter and shorter faces, more and more wrinkles. At what point does it go 'too far' and who is going to define it?
Until recently, I was under the impression that a merle was a merle was a merle and unlike sables, it wasn't possible to selectively breed for a certain 'shade' of merle. I'm not a huge fan it must be said of pale merles with little black 'merling', but now I wonder if breeders actively selecting for this are going to be be the ultimate death knell for the colour, if it's proven to cause an increase in health issues even if merle to merle matings are avoided.

Certainly I believe that things are going to change and practices which in the past were accepted without question are in future going to be under intense scrutiny to determine whether they are 'ethical'. This might sound like a positive develpment but unfortunatly it is unlikely to have much impact on the hidden underground elements - the puppy millers and backyard breeders, only on the breeders who are in the public eye by virtue of attending shows and registering their puppies. And it is these breeders who are most likely to have the knowledge, expertise and desire to do the right thing in any case.

I wouldn't be so certain that it won't happen in other areas of the world either.

http://got50.blogspot.com/2011/05/purebred-paradox-conference.html

If you are interested in reading more about the merle beardie discussion, including a variety of viewpoints, this is worth looking at. I will point out that while this is a UK blog, many of the comments are from people in the US.
http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.com/2010/11/shaggy-dogs-and-salvation.html
 
I don't see the correlation.

What do I care if someone is breeding healthy, happy dogs? Even if I think their breeding program is silly. If you are breeding unhealthy dogs, or half your kennel ends up in rescue, then there is a problem.

Remember, we can't regulate life to the lowest IQ. For the same reasons I don't want my evening TV to be kid appropriate, just because someone lets thier kid stay up late, and they might see something adult. I want to hear 140 ****s in an episode of South Park.

But don't tell me I can't or shouldn't breed Merles because some other people breed them irresponsibly.

I'm not saying that at all. Please don't get defensive. I'm not talking about breeders who actually know what they are doing.

I'm talking about breeders who are under-informed or trying to create new standards without understanding the risks. Or breeders who don't insist on spaying/neutuering with a pup not up to standard.

For every breeder out there who understands geneology, etc. there are 20 that don't have a clue. And that's how a supposed "purebred" dog can be breed and breed again with bad lines.

That's all, I'm saying. I'm sorry if this discussion struck a wrong chord with folk. I was trying to start an intelligent conversation about maintaining the breed standards and health of the breed in light of unscrupulous breeders.

I give.
 
To me the american shelties and English shelties are so different I can hardly believe they are the same breed at first :p I wonder what happens when a judge who is used to US type shelties has to judge in Europe. The europe type head shape is different, and more delicate. I can tell the difference even as an amateur in shelties.

(The two lines are quite distinct both in terms of type and genetically. However, the American and UK standards are acatually rather similar and it is interpretation and perception of how the breed ought to look that has resulted in the differences. I think though that there are certainly dogs from both countries which are not very different from each other and presentation does make a huge difference to appearence and can be misleading. In Australia both types are sucessfully shown and bred together.)

In reply to both Barb and ClantyreSheltie's points, I will and am doing my utmost over here in the UK to support show breeders, purebred dogs and the right to continue showing and breeding them. Unfortunatly, from what I've observed of life, it takes only one or two 'rotten apples' to spoil things for everyone. My goodness but this was illustrated in Pedigree Dogs Exposed!! The day before it screened I think most members of the public would have said they enjoyed Crufts, thought KC regestered was a mark of quality etc. In the space of one evening, the reputation of EVERYONE who bred dogs for the showring was very badly tarnished indeeed. People were saying they were planning on going to a show breeder for their next pup but now they would do anything other than that. I was (am) so proud of the Crufts stickers in my car but the morning after the programme was aired I feared I would be spat at or the car vandalised - it really was that bad. 'The public' didn't take into account the majority of really good breeders who invested everything into ensuring they produced wonderful, healthy dogs. Every one was tarred with the same brush because of an hour of TV telling the nation what a mess pedigree dogs were and how dog showing was the height of evil.
The result is likely to be some form of external regulation and there are already considerably more restrictions placed upon breeders. It's been over 3 years but those who breed for show are STILL regarded with deepest suspicion.

I cannot stress too much that breeders need to be proactive and be able to justify their actions to an increasingly sceptical public. Unfortunatly, it does seem that the lowest denominator frequently dictates life for the rest of us. If 'show breeders' are seen (even if it is only in a small minority of examples) to be disregarding ethics, welfare, health etc for purely asthetic purposes, which the 'public' have no concept of, there will be calls for regulation, bans etc. It won't matter that most are breeding sensibly, only one or two instances is usually sufficient ammunition.

I really really don't want to see merle breeding banned or regulated. It is a truly beautiful colour, after about a centuary, as much a part of the sheltie as any other colour and I've seen no proof that leads me to think heterozygous merles are less healthy either.
There are no guarantes in reproduction and sometimes, mistakes happen. The outside possibility of two cryptic merles inadvertently being bred together shouldn't (IMO) be justification for eliminating the colour entirely from a genepool, providing the vast majority of breeders are responsible and not deliberatly breeding merle to merle.

I think Barb is asking a perfectly valid question as to how the breeding of merles can be justified if there is the potential for catastrophic outcomes when not done properly. There is every possibility for some kind of regulation or ban being imposed due to the actions of uninformed/uncaring (backyard, puppymill) breeders and this will be compounded if 'responsible' (show) breeders are openly prepared to do the same thing inspite of the known risks. It will only add fuel to the fire that 'show' breeders who should know better, only care about winning and not about producing disabled puppies. Because the show world is under so much scrutiny it really does need to lead by its actions and not persist in practices which many will find abhorrent.
 
I have a Polaris puppy, he is wonderful! Smart, confident, everything I wanted. I did not choose him because of mom or dad, he just happened to become available when my plans for a certain border puppy collapsed. My first pedigree puppy, my second sheltie and promises to be my third obedience dog.

His daddy is white but I hear he has produced many champions.
 
I have a Polaris puppy, he is wonderful! Smart, confident, everything I wanted. I did not choose him because of mom or dad, he just happened to become available when my plans for a certain border puppy collapsed. My first pedigree puppy, my second sheltie and promises to be my third obedience dog.

His daddy is white but I hear he has produced many champions.

I don't think the issue at hand has anything to do with whether or not the offspring of these double merles are healthy and sound. I think where people have trouble is with the idea behind the litter that produced Polaris. Yes, he is a beautiful dog, but what was the intent when his parents were bred? Were any puppies born deaf or blind and culled while Polaris survived because he beat the genetic odds that were stacked against him? And if his entire litter was lucky enough to all be without genetic defect, are we okay with the idea that there was an xx% chance that they wouldn't be that fortuitous?

I'm still working out how I feel about all of this, I'm just expressing some of the questions that I come up with as I consider these practices.
 
I've just googled Polaris and must confess, I find it quite disturbing that a sheltie who colour wise is no different from Mia, should be being promoted as a ROM sire. To my mind, it is endorsing the practice of merle to merle breeding because there is a potential to get an outstanding dog who can be a top sire. But how many people are going to see this, think it's OK and try and emulate it - producing goodness knows how many Mias and Duncans in the process. Can the possibility of producing a ROM sire for the show ring, REALLY justify the very real probability of severely disabled puppies being born as a 'by product' - which is what they are?

I can however understand the temptation, the white shelties/collies etc I have seen usually are pretty good examples of the breed - for some reason the double merle effect seems to combine with the genes necessary for good type.

I am also quite surprised that apparently there is "absolutely nothing wrong" with him, as I was under the impression that dogs this unpigmented were virtually certain to have some extent of hearing or sight defect.

I agree with Corbinam, to me this sums up the opening post perfectly. Here is an example of a white dog produced from a deliberate merle to merle mating, who has gone on to be an outstanding sire. Is this OK as long as you're OK with the fact that the rest of the litter may not have been as lucky?
 
There have been five or six ROM double Merle dogs. Oreo is not unique in that regard. As far as I know, he is deaf and sighted. I've seen him in his yard, and he plays as hard as the rest of the dogs.

Having double Merle's be "good examples of the breed" is probably not an accident. Why would you take that risk to produce bad examples of the breed?

Here is the other thing to think on. Unlike ridgeless Rhodesian Ridgebacks, we don't know the puppies are blind and deaf until they are three to four weeks old, or later. So it's not like they are bucketed at birth. I doubt much "culling" goes on. More likely the dogs are either kept or placed. And we aren't talking huge numbers either. Few breeders do blue to blue, and it's a 25% chance per puppy of getting a homozygous Merle.
 
Pffffrrrt can I just say I'm not impressed with this breeder of Polaris and how people seem to be lining up for their females to be mated with him? Anybody care to ask what happened to the rest of the litter that Polaris was born in?
 
Back
Top