VallejoSheltie
Forums Enthusiast
I thought breeding for 10" was... err... not sure.
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Mini & Toy Shelties?
- Thread starter VallejoSheltie
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VallejoSheltie
Forums Enthusiast
Ooww, snap! 
Well, I just measured again, and he may actually be 19"......However, he was the largest of the litter, AKC pure, etc.
I guess what caught me up a bit was this: "The Toy Sheltie is classically 10-12 1/2 inches at the withers and 8-15 lbs. "
I wasn't aware there has historically been a Toy Sheltie. I've never come across it in any of the history I've read, and not sure if that may have been perhaps just made up.
I'm pretty sure Boots is closer to the original herding dog than a 10" Toy. If you read about how Scots actually kept sheep, or actually, didn't really 'keep' them, I'm doubtful even 13-15# shelties would have the stride and stamina to herd sheep that are 75-125# all across the mountains. Possible? Sure, I guess. However most herding dogs are mid-sized or larger for a reason, stride length. Smaller "Toy" Tuunie dogs were supposedly kept around the farm to deter ingress onto the farm from wildlife. That would not be quite the same as herding a flock. But then, the more I read, the more I am getting convinced that the entire Shetland Sheepdog history is a quaint story made up to sell the mid-19th century tourist trade, and possibly some people's ego's to create a new breed with a plausible background story to support it.
I came across this guys article, which made a lot of sense. Especially about how we may all have been sold a bill of goods on the history of the Sheltie. But many of the comments are quite informative and call into question some of his conclusions. He does seem to have some interesting anectdotal information from the time period.
http://retrieverman.net/2012/03/01/rethinking-the-origins-of-the-shetland-sheepdog/
I guess all I know now is that my boy probably has a fair bit of Collie in him, and thats about it.
But the people at foxpoint do seem to be set on breeding a 10", maybe smaller Toy dog. While they seem to have some knowledge of breeding, runts etc, I am rather of the opinion that just because you can do something, doesn't mean its the right thing to do.
Toy dogs generally seem to be very uptight, and/or afraid in my experience. Breeding down just to satisfy some Paris Hilton-type mentality comes across to me as truely playing god for profit, and damn the unintended consequences the dogs themselves will most likely have to endure their entire lives.
Well, I just measured again, and he may actually be 19"......However, he was the largest of the litter, AKC pure, etc.
I guess what caught me up a bit was this: "The Toy Sheltie is classically 10-12 1/2 inches at the withers and 8-15 lbs. "
I wasn't aware there has historically been a Toy Sheltie. I've never come across it in any of the history I've read, and not sure if that may have been perhaps just made up.
I'm pretty sure Boots is closer to the original herding dog than a 10" Toy. If you read about how Scots actually kept sheep, or actually, didn't really 'keep' them, I'm doubtful even 13-15# shelties would have the stride and stamina to herd sheep that are 75-125# all across the mountains. Possible? Sure, I guess. However most herding dogs are mid-sized or larger for a reason, stride length. Smaller "Toy" Tuunie dogs were supposedly kept around the farm to deter ingress onto the farm from wildlife. That would not be quite the same as herding a flock. But then, the more I read, the more I am getting convinced that the entire Shetland Sheepdog history is a quaint story made up to sell the mid-19th century tourist trade, and possibly some people's ego's to create a new breed with a plausible background story to support it.
I came across this guys article, which made a lot of sense. Especially about how we may all have been sold a bill of goods on the history of the Sheltie. But many of the comments are quite informative and call into question some of his conclusions. He does seem to have some interesting anectdotal information from the time period.
http://retrieverman.net/2012/03/01/rethinking-the-origins-of-the-shetland-sheepdog/
I guess all I know now is that my boy probably has a fair bit of Collie in him, and thats about it.
But the people at foxpoint do seem to be set on breeding a 10", maybe smaller Toy dog. While they seem to have some knowledge of breeding, runts etc, I am rather of the opinion that just because you can do something, doesn't mean its the right thing to do.
Toy dogs generally seem to be very uptight, and/or afraid in my experience. Breeding down just to satisfy some Paris Hilton-type mentality comes across to me as truely playing god for profit, and damn the unintended consequences the dogs themselves will most likely have to endure their entire lives.
Well I hate to tell you this, but your 18" Sheltie is just as un-Sheltie as a 11" *toy* Sheltie is
So really you could apply this to anyone that wants or has a Sheltie that's not between 13" and 16", as anything outside of those measurements is not a good representation of the breed itself.
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Caro
Moderator
So many things to add.
I'll start with the last article by the retrieverman, he is way off the mark, better to stick with the official histories undertaken by experienced people with extensive research. The question isn't about the role and existence of the Toonies - the questions are around which breeds it contains. His premise is that Toonies were not farm dogs at all but just a toy breed and boy does he twist things up.
Height change. Two reasons why Shelties have gotten bigger - one is the Roughs being bred into them increased the size. This is also partly why British and American sizes differ, because Roughs come in British and American sizes. And we feed them much better now so generally they will get bigger - it's part of nature.
Breeding from runts troubles me. Runts are more likely to have health problems so doesn't that mean you're continually breeding from dogs with potential problems, increasing the risk of problems in your lines.
I'll start with the last article by the retrieverman, he is way off the mark, better to stick with the official histories undertaken by experienced people with extensive research. The question isn't about the role and existence of the Toonies - the questions are around which breeds it contains. His premise is that Toonies were not farm dogs at all but just a toy breed and boy does he twist things up.
Height change. Two reasons why Shelties have gotten bigger - one is the Roughs being bred into them increased the size. This is also partly why British and American sizes differ, because Roughs come in British and American sizes. And we feed them much better now so generally they will get bigger - it's part of nature.
Breeding from runts troubles me. Runts are more likely to have health problems so doesn't that mean you're continually breeding from dogs with potential problems, increasing the risk of problems in your lines.
ClantyreSheltie
Forums Sage
Glad most breeders don't think like this, or we'd have a serious problem. Especially given the differences in expression between dogs and bitches (i.e. a 16" bitch is the genetic equivalent to a 17" dog)
ClantyreSheltie
Forums Sage
Ooww, snap!
I'm pretty sure Boots is closer to the original herding dog than a 10" Toy. If you read about how Scots actually kept sheep, or actually, didn't really 'keep' them, I'm doubtful even 13-15# shelties would have the stride and stamina to herd sheep that are 75-125# all across the mountains. Possible? Sure, I guess. However most herding dogs are mid-sized or larger for a reason, stride length. Smaller "Toy" Tuunie dogs were supposedly kept around the farm to deter ingress onto the farm from wildlife. That would not be quite the same as herding a flock. But then, the more I read, the more I am getting convinced that the entire Shetland Sheepdog history is a quaint story made up to sell the mid-19th century tourist trade, and possibly some people's ego's to create a new breed with a plausible background story to support it.
I 100% agree with this. You see very few Shelties on B courses or in Border Collie type trials simply because they don't have the size or stride length to cover the sheep. I've seen some larger (oversize) Shelties do it, but those are few and far between. My mothers 13" sheltie can do an A course, but she has to work.
Caro
Moderator
Shetland sheep aren't as big as the sheep used today. My understanding is the small crofts had some sheep that ran fairly wild over the rugged mountains and the sheltie was bred to be nimble over those terrains to get to the sheep - a bigger dog would have problems climbing like the shelties could. They didn't need to cover large areas to bring a full sized flock in though (the island isn't that big and the farms were very small). Being an all-round farm dog they were required to do all the things around the farm, like keeping birds away from crops, chasing out vermin. Shetlanders were poor people so needed a small dog for their small farms that could do a variety of things and bred together whatever breeds were around to serve all those purposes. Like all the Shetland animals they needed to be small and versatile. Yes they were probably bits of this and that, but the Kennel Club wouldn't have bothered with something that was just a mongrel and not a recognisable breed in it's own right - think of the Scotch Collie.
Ooww, snap!
Toy dogs generally seem to be very uptight, and/or afraid in my experience. Breeding down just to satisfy some Paris Hilton-type mentality comes across to me as truely playing god for profit, and damn the unintended consequences the dogs themselves will most likely have to endure their entire lives.
That may be the case for puppy mill toys or ones that are bred indiscriminately - but I can tell you that my Pom was an amazing, extremely friendly outgoing, inquisitive little guy. He was a big dog in a little body in every way, and far too smart for his own good! My vet who isn't fond of Poms just loved Dawson. He just trotted into that clinic and had to explore everything and of course get petted by everyone. I miss him terribly!
HopeShelties
Forums Enthusiast
There are some smaller shelties who can do well on larger stock. Wildrose Faerie Tale has her HTCH and HC and is only 13".
Admittedly, my experience with "Toy" dogs is limited. In fact what knowledge I have is specific to Yorkies because two of my daughters have them. In that limited experience, I have found them to be neither uptight nor afraid. Are they indicative of the breed? Can't say. Only that they do not seem to exhibit those tendencies. I would also hazard a guess that while some breeders (of Toy Shelties) may be doing so chasing the Paris Hilton ideals as suggested, some may be breeding with the same vigor and zeal that those Sheltie breeders we laud breed for. I don't particularly agree with what they are doing, but I can't summarily condemn them for doing so either. There would seem to be far too many variables involved for me to make such a judgment.
ClantyreSheltie
Forums Sage
Yes, but not on B course. Stock will respect dogs of all sizes. it's the field size where Shelties and other small breeds are at a disadvantage.