NEVER thought I would have this problem.

[Lysette85]

I was thinking about Koji when he was a puppy when I read your post. Sounds almost the same, except he's sorta just as bad as a 4yo. So, to help with the food issue......

Someone else wrote, "use it against LB". Seriously, best advice ever. Make him work for his food (NILIF). Use those toys that dispense food. You can just stick him in an xpen. Use the Premack Principle. It works wonders for food hounds. "Premack’s Principle states an animal will perform an undesired behavior in order to engage in a desirable behavior." Koji will hold his stay for 15 minutes if he knows dinner is following. I would suggest feeding Claussen first while LB sit's and waits. You can treat him while he waits. And/or train LB when Claussen is eating. You can work on anything, obedience, tricks, etc.

If you choose to continue feeding them both in crates. I would allow Claussen to finish, let him out of his crate. Take the bowl out so LB sees you. Then, make LB sit and wait for you to open the door. Make him learn to stay in there until he is released (crate games). If he runs over to Claussen's crate, it's okay. Food is gone. He'll probably do this the rest of his life.

As for the barking. A trainer recently said something to me that I never thought about. A lot of times, we want our dogs to stop barking, stop growling, etc. It's basically us telling them not to "talk" to us in anyway, and that's not good. So, it's okay that LB barks, BUT he needs to learn to stop. Or learn to calm down. I think someone suggested crate games. I'm told that works wonders. I haven't tried it myself though.

Also, why is LB barking at the shepherds? Is he fearful? Does he want to play? Is he being aggressive? My trainer who's helping me with Koji's barking/lunging/etc said he's afraid, but doesn't know how to handle it, and this is what he knows. Popping the collar does nothing but make it worse as you're actually making their current level of unease rise. There's many different ways to handle this. You have to decide what works for you. But it's best if you first understand why LB is acting the way he is.

Hope some of that helped. And trust me, although at 6 months he's probably in that rebellion stage, in that same breath, take care of this now. You do NOT want a 4yo, like Koji, doing the same things. It's dang embarrassing.

Oh, as for the other dogs, have you thought of walking with a stick to keep them at a distance? And definitely do not allow LB off-leash and running at them. If the other dog attacks or if the owner smacks LB with a stick....you do realize its LB's and your fault, right? Until he's in control 100%, I wouldn't allow him off-leash outside ever. Keep him safe from himself. Koji may never hurt a person or dog, but I"m sure one day, an owner or dog will retaliate.

Good luck!!! Now go hug that cute puppy of yours!

Well, here's the thing, LB doesn't just bark when he's out there. If he's barking, he's running. If there is something down in the parking lot, he's running back and forth along my lawn barking and it seems he's being dominant and protective of "his territory". With the shepherds, if they come outside, LB runs right up to them, bouncing 3 feet up and barking with every hop. Once they turn towards him and move in on him, he runs to me ears back in fear. After my neighbor calls his dogs back over, LB does this "YEAH, you run! That's what I thought!" bark and the dogs turn back towards him, and then LB looks to me for help again, or runs inside. I don't know if he's taunting them or what.

It's gotten to the point where when he is let out to potty, he bolts, running around frantically barking his head off and LOOKING for something to be the reason for the bark. When he realizes there's nothing to bark at, then he settles down ( or he listens to my QUIET!) Wierd huh?

 

[corbinam]

Well, here's the thing, LB doesn't just bark when he's out there. If he's barking, he's running. If there is something down in the parking lot, he's running back and forth along my lawn barking and it seems he's being dominant and protective of "his territory". With the shepherds, if they come outside, LB runs right up to them, bouncing 3 feet up and barking with every hop. Once they turn towards him and move in on him, he runs to me ears back in fear. After my neighbor calls his dogs back over, LB does this "YEAH, you run! That's what I thought!" bark and the dogs turn back towards him, and then LB looks to me for help again, or runs inside. I don't know if he's taunting them or what.

It's gotten to the point where when he is let out to potty, he bolts, running around frantically barking his head off and LOOKING for something to be the reason for the bark. When he realizes there's nothing to bark at, then he settles down ( or he listens to my QUIET!) Wierd huh?

Might be time to no longer allow him out unleashed. Start with a regular leash and reward him for paying attention to you and not reacting to the shepherds. Then you can progress to a longer leash, etc.

I have not been able to stop my dog from fence chasing the neighbor's weimeraners (they are very confrontational) but I limit his access to them.

 

[SheltieChe]

yep, no running fence fighting and no off leash until you have behavior you want and can call him off that fence or shepherds no matter what.
Snip snip IMHO will make no difference.

 

[lovemyshelties]

Well, not sure where to begin. Murphy (our newest adoptee) is about 5 years old and barks when he's excited, playing, or when the dog out back charges the fence. Zoey (our 2-yr old) bolts out the back door of our fenced yard barking her head off and running around like she's crazy. I've resorted to taking her out on a long lead to try and correct this annoying behavior. Perhaps it's time to consult with a good trainer. Best of luck!

 

[Jaynie]

I know this sounds pretty odd - but I miss the barking. Bela does not bark at all - even after she's been with me for 4 months. Her foster mom said she was horribly "talky" while in a group, but here? Silent as a tomb.

I had my boys snipped at 7 months and 2.5 years. I had them both done at the same time so there would be no jockeying for position in the pack.

The 7 month old was a Border Collie - at the time, he weighed about 50 pounds (he was 67 at maturity). He already had a huge, shaggy, dense coat (unlike most American lines of BC - he was imported from Yorkshire in utero). The only difference I ever saw in his behavior was that he never raised a leg to pee, he just squatted like a girl. But then, he didn't do this before neutering, either.

The 2.5 year old was a Sheltie (12 pounds soaking wet, 13 inches, and exceedingly petite). His nickname in obedience class was "Mr. Testosterone." He never did develop a big, fluffy coat, but I believe that that was just due to his type (a breeder once told me he was a "throwback" to earlier versions of the Sheltie standard). I really don't think the lack of coat was due to neutering. As he moved into old age (he lived to be 17), his coat did become more dense and stood out a bit more.

Having the Sheltie neutered was supposed to make him a more "steady" obedience competitor. It really didn't change his nickname (he was still quite definitely an alpha dog), but it did make him a lot less interested in the ladies.

 

[BarbV]

Barb, I do not think "touch" is really needed if you so bound on punishing your dogs. Dogs respond to body movements much better, so you planting yourself in front of them, leaning forward with mean expression is enough social pressure for your dogs, specially for sensitive herding breeds. What would be great if you, after stopping unwanted behavior, immediately leaned
back, put a big smile on your face, asked for what you want your dog to do at that time and rewarded jack pot for the behavior you want.
To understand this, try following, find another human and stand facing each other with toes 6" from each other, i.e. pretty close face to face. Stand like that for few seconds then step back. Describe what you feel.
Generally being that close to another human being is kinda tense and stressful so stepping back feels like great relief. Bank on that feeling and reinforce behavior you want. Will work much better that "not kicking but touching" your dog Not my theory, actually this one from Chris Bach " Third Way" training.

I want to clarify what I mean by "touch". This an adaptation of Caesar's method that I've found is working for Indy. It's not punishment, nor painful. I barely actually touch him. There is no jabbing, no poking. It's "attention" - as in "pay attention to me". It's a tap, that's all.

The touch on the neck is simply a reminder to the dog as to when he was a pup, and how his mother would correct him.

Now, I find that if I plant myself in front of Indy when he's going in craze mode, with my arm out, he understands that I mean stop and settle.

While like many of you, I sometimes find Caesar's methods to be a little extreme, I think there are some basic truths there. If you take the best of what he does and adapt it, I think some of his techniques work in a positive way.

 

[Toffee's Mom]

I want to clarify what I mean by "touch". This an adaptation of Caesar's method that I've found is working for Indy. It's not punishment, nor painful. I barely actually touch him. There is no jabbing, no poking. It's "attention" - as in "pay attention to me". It's a tap, that's all.

The touch on the neck is simply a reminder to the dog as to when he was a pup, and how his mother would correct him.

Now, I find that if I plant myself in front of Indy when he's going in craze mode, with my arm out, he understands that I mean stop and settle.

While like many of you, I sometimes find Caesar's methods to be a little extreme, I think there are some basic truths there. If you take the best of what he does and adapt it, I think some of his techniques work in a positive way.

They don't... Sure they can work, but not in a positive way.
What you're saying is exactly how I started to turn around, I DEFINITELY used to feel the same way at the time, but the more and more I watched real handlers, Instructors and trainers the less respect I had for those Cesar methods... I started reading and researching... There ARE much better methods out there that don't make a dog more frustrated and don't ruin your fun with them

 

[BarbV]

They don't... Sure they can work, but not in a positive way.
What you're saying is exactly how I started to turn around, I DEFINITELY used to feel the same way at the time, but the more and more I watched real handlers, Instructors and trainers the less respect I had for those Cesar methods... I started reading and researching... There ARE much better methods out there that don't make a dog more frustrated and don't ruin your fun with them

I'm truly interested in learning other techniques then.

I did not see me stopping Indy in his "tracks" as forcing him to be submissive, but merely to get him to focus on me, instead of the dog walking by. And him barking like a crazy fiend. I'm just waiting for a complaint from one of my neighbours by my barking dog.

So how do you stop a dog that is running like crazy up and down the fence barking at everyone walking by, if not with a little assertiveness?????? I am truly open to anything that has worked for others. I am quite desperate here!

btw....have to laugh because one of the dog walkers is a Caesar wanna-be....he even has a walking stick....this dog, Indy is the most aggressive about, btw!

 

[SheltieChe]

Barb,
Not that I am a great trainer, because I am not and am making tons of various mistakes, but I am curious and like learning... here is what I have learned, simple facts about dog training...
Our dogs are product of our abilities as a trainer.
As Bob Bailey says, evaluate what you have now- decide what you want to have, everything in between is training.
Controlling reinforcement is a must.
Positive is not permissive.
You can redirect, manage or fix/ train/ behavior you want. Redirect by asking for incompatible behavior, manage by avoiding situations you do not want like put your garbage cans out of dogs reach and fix by training behavior you want to have.
Start distraction training in the bathroom.



SO you need to stop dogs from self reinforcing their fence fighting habits. You can achieve it by redirecting i.e. ask for sit or down when they want to run, you can manage by not letting them off leash and you can fix it by training for attention/ self impulse control in the bathroom, then in living room then outside etc.
Criteria for letting them run off leash will be your ability to recall them off fence running at any point.
It is simple, nobody said it is easy though...

 

[Justicemom]

Ember is my fence fighter. She would launch her little body right into the fence. I can call her off in an instant. Her recall is 99.9% the first time I call her from the fence but it doesn't stop her some doing it in the first place if I do not manage the situation.

I need to be outside when she is, if her head looks toward the fence or her tail goes up even a cm I need to tell her leave it. She will. No a peep. But if I am not paying attention and she sees something to bark at she will go full force into the fence until I tell her to stop. She will turn in mid stride away from the fence if she is running towards. Happily.

I can also put her in a down or sit and a herd or dogs and people could run by the fence laughing and waving hot dogs and she will not move.

I have not found a way to stop it completely. If I am not there all bets are off. This is true of most self rewarding behaviors. The behavior still occurs in the absent of the handler for most dogs. Counter surfing being a good example. The way to deal with that is don't leave food out unattended. The behavior will fade and go away if enough time goes by.

The problem with fence fighting is you can't keep people from walking by your house or the neighbors from letting them dogs out.