Novice Gambler (distance work)

[k9kreationz]

Oops, you didn't ask for my advice

Heck, I'll take whatever advice I can get. Question for you (or anyone who wants to answer). I know Shelties tend to move off of us and our movement (you go, they go, etc). So, for out's, how do you get them to keep going? I take it you just need to stay away from the line, send them and that's where the "distance" comes in to play? Why am I still signing up for Chances in NADAC (it's definitely a LOT harder than Jackpot and FAST - never played Gamblers). Oh wait, cuz it's cheaper to sign up for it than not to.

My issues is stopping on the line. Sigh. I know everyone talks about pushing the line, how can you teach that? Cuz Koji has no sense of push. But he's oh so great at keeping off those tricky off-course obstacles they like to put in front of you. (trying to stay positive about my velcro dog).

 

[k9kreationz]

On the upside, Koji seems to understand "go on" but I have to remember NOT TO STOP!!! ugh. I haven't learned how to slow down yet. I'm either moving or stopping. So bad. I wish we had distance classes.

Does anyone suggest any videos?

I have to get outside to work with him. Unfortunately, we don't learn any of this in class. Not sure why. However, as my friend says, "use class time to practice distance". But honestly, I think it's more me that has issues. Maybe I should run around in circles and learn to speed up, slow down, etc. I think that's what I need to learn....not what the DOG needs, but what I need.

 

[k9kreationz]

You got the Sept issue already? Sheesh. None here. Okay, I did read the distance article that Sheri suggested. Again, I understand all this talk about "pushing" the line, but it's hard to push the line, when Koji just doesn't get the pushing part. When I try to push, seriuosly, he comes back and yells at me (well, the barks his talking back bark). That's how I realized he does NOT get what pushing is. Even when I invade his space, he just wants to play or gets on top of me. This dog has no concept of personal space, his or mine.

I can't wait till Sept issue, since they are discussing distance. Also, I'll check out the backyard dog part and see how it's more obstacle focused.

Honestly, I really do think at this point, it's me. LOL It's not Koji. Mom just has absolutely no clue what she's doing. Imagine that.

 

[k9kreationz]

Last trial the gamble was jump, tunnel, 8 offset weaves, offset jump and a tyre, that was fun

Oh that's a lot of obstacles. The one thing I hate in Chances (NADAC) is that sometimes they have a discrimination. In Novice. That's just mean.

 

[Silaria]

Heck, I'll take whatever advice I can get. Question for you (or anyone who wants to answer). I know Shelties tend to move off of us and our movement (you go, they go, etc). So, for out's, how do you get them to keep going? I take it you just need to stay away from the line, send them and that's where the "distance" comes in to play? Why am I still signing up for Chances in NADAC (it's definitely a LOT harder than Jackpot and FAST - never played Gamblers). Oh wait, cuz it's cheaper to sign up for it than not to.

My issues is stopping on the line. Sigh. I know everyone talks about pushing the line, how can you teach that? Cuz Koji has no sense of push. But he's oh so great at keeping off those tricky off-course obstacles they like to put in front of you. (trying to stay positive about my velcro dog).

You need a distance class like the one I just took!

Yes, the dogs queue off your movement forward, back, left and right. Some of the trick to working good forward and lateral sends, I've learned recently, is the learn how to best use the space on your side of the gamble line. For instance, if you have to run right up to the line to get your dog to take a tunnel, move backward away from the line while he's in the tunnel so you have room to move forward toward the line again. In this manner you "push" the line without crossing it.

Even though I've been working on distance for about a year, its only recently that we've made some really good strides forward with him understanding what I need him to do. How did I do it? Jump uprights!

I have free standing jump uprights. (Look at the uprights in this picture: http://silaria.net/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=794. I got the 5-way PVC connectors from Clean Run.) Anyway, for a lateral send (Out command - send sideways away from me) I started with one upright, walked toward it with Edan, told him "out" and stepped slightly into his path as we approached the upright to push him around the upright. (The upright was between us.)

I started this exercise with Edan almost in a heel position and the upright was right beside us. Slowly I moved the upright further away from our walking line so he's have to run out a few feet to go around the pole.

As that grew consistent, I added a second pole and worked on holding him out away from me until he went around both poles. Started with the two poles side by side and slowly spread them apart.

I'll see how DH is feeling (he's allergies have given him a NASTY cold). If he's feeling up to it, I'll try to video the exercise.

The long and short of it is though, you start close in to you and slowly add distance as they begin to understand what you are asking when you say "out" or "go".

 

[k9kreationz]

Oh, you don't need to do a video, I totally understand. However, do it when he feels better (just so I can see). Koji and I have been working Get Out (lateral) and Go On (keep going forward) at home. It helps to get him some distance. At our last NADAC, I was working him on the practice jump (prior to his run), and was about 15 feet out and sending him. But in the ring, obviously, not so much. 5 feet is hard. LOL.

I also noticed when I'm sending him Out to take the jump, I'm taking only one step. So he'll go if I'm not really moving, HOWEVER, I know I'm also stopping suddenly in the ring, so he doesn't go on. Expected. It's just something I need to work on. I noticed I also don't point anymore at obstacles (good or bad). I'm almost to the point where I need to stop calling out their names cuz I'm getting them all mixed up. LOL. Bad me.

Okay okay. It's all me. We all know it.

 

[corbinam]

Heck, I'll take whatever advice I can get. Question for you (or anyone who wants to answer). I know Shelties tend to move off of us and our movement (you go, they go, etc). So, for out's, how do you get them to keep going? I take it you just need to stay away from the line, send them and that's where the "distance" comes in to play? Why am I still signing up for Chances in NADAC (it's definitely a LOT harder than Jackpot and FAST - never played Gamblers). Oh wait, cuz it's cheaper to sign up for it than not to.

My issues is stopping on the line. Sigh. I know everyone talks about pushing the line, how can you teach that? Cuz Koji has no sense of push. But he's oh so great at keeping off those tricky off-course obstacles they like to put in front of you. (trying to stay positive about my velcro dog).

So the way that you want to keep moving, is really reliant upon your dog already committing/focusing on the "out" obstacle. Obviously you will have to stop moving at some point (assuming you can always side step or anything), but your dog needs to have committed by that point. The key to that is to start easy. Put a jump at the opening of a curved tunnel, send Koji over the tunnel to the jump. If you have to, run to the opening of the tunnel, but before he even takes the jump, you want to say "Go Tunnel!" and run and keep your arm out. Don't look at him. As soon as he steps foot in the tunnel "Good boy!" If he's successful, move the jump back a step, or, try to not run to the opening of the tunnel. If he doesn't get it, help him a bit (by moving closer), but still don't look at him. As he starts to get it, or if he even needs more help and is confused by your "stopping" you can add horizontal movement to help him know to keep going. You can send to the tunnel and sort of peel off towards the exit.

I know you've seen this video, but here's an example. You can see me peeling off to create the illusion that I am going with Bentley, to keep him moving. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHmML63nQ0w

I guarantee you that Koji does have a "push". If he doesn't, he will learn it quickly. You can just use one jump to teach that. Set a jump up, with a chair (or a jump wing, or a trash can, whatever you have) right next to it--no room to wiggle through! Set Koji up with some space before the jump, and run him to the jump. Keep your arm out the entire time as you tell him "out!" If you have to, run RIGHT next to the chair so he can't get through. It might not seem like an out (it's just like a winged jump!), but the idea is that he has to get away from you. If he's successful, big treats! And move the chair a little away from the jump. You can also move yourself not quite as close to the chair. Remember not to look at him (user your peripheral vision), and also to keep your arm out the whole time. When you tell him "Out" use a loud, commanding voice. Loud = obstacle focus. If you have to, take a giant exaggerated step into him. I am fairly confident that he will step away from you. If he doesn't, you'll run into him. And he'll learn quickly

Here's an example of a gamble that this works for. It's an old video, but notice that Jonathan keeps his hand out the whole time, and tries not to look at him other than peripherally. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hr0EB6aOtrM

 

[corbinam]

You got the Sept issue already? Sheesh. None here. Okay, I did read the distance article that Sheri suggested. Again, I understand all this talk about "pushing" the line, but it's hard to push the line, when Koji just doesn't get the pushing part. When I try to push, seriuosly, he comes back and yells at me (well, the barks his talking back bark). That's how I realized he does NOT get what pushing is. Even when I invade his space, he just wants to play or gets on top of me. This dog has no concept of personal space, his or mine.

You can teach Koji about space...but you can't be nice about it. If he steps on you, jumps in front of you, don't stop. You have to let him know that is YOUR space. You keep going, even if that means you bump into him.

In a seminar I went to we set up an exercise to teach about my space/your space. You put your dog in a stay on one side of a jump, you go to the other side, but turn perpendicular to the jump (so your side is facing the jump). Leave just a little bit of room (room enough for the dog to get over, but not take more than a step). Put the hand closest to the jump out, and call the dog over to your hand (it can have a treat in it if you want). You want the dog to come over the jump and turn to face the way you're facing (if you're facing right, the dog should jump, and turn towards the right). It should be pretty tight. The idea is that the dog should NOT jump into you or onto you. If he does, give him a bump and say something like "my space!" Not a correction, but a "hey! what's going on?!" Dogs tell each other that all the time.

 

[k9kreationz]

As soon as he steps foot in the tunnel "Good boy!"

Question: Would doing this teach him to not go in the tunnel? I worry, because 1. If I say good boy, I"m sure he'll come back to me and 2. he patterns easily. I'm just scared it'll teach him to peel off the tunnel. AUGH! Thoughts?

I know you've seen this video, but here's an example. You can see me peeling off to create the illusion that I am going with Bentley, to keep him moving.

When you first started, would your peeling off pull him into you? I can say w/o a doubt I'd pull Koji off the tunnel and he'd take the other jump (if I was running that same thing). Hmmm.....I guess at that point, it's all timing. i.e. pull off when he's committed. I haven't quite figured out when he's committed, because I've pulled him OUT of the tunnel with sudden side movements. Sigh. He could obviously see me.

If he doesn't, you'll run into him. And he'll learn quickly

I'll give this a try with a wing. See if that helps. The little sneaker will squeeze through until he gets it, but like my trainer says, that just means he's not ready for it yet, go back one step. BTW, Koji runs into me all the time. Trust me, it doesn't phase him. I think what I need to do is kinda teach him how to heel. He's taken me out on walks (i.e. walks in front of me, I trip over him). Doesn't phase him. So, yeah, running into him equals nada. sad, but true. He's a strange pup.

Here's an example of a gamble that this works for. It's an old video, but notice that Jonathan keeps his hand out the whole time, and tries not to look at him other than peripherally.

You can tell it's old, Bentley has so much more focus now, neat! BTW, I recall reading Bud Houston's blog on distance, he said, be like "The Mummy". I would assume that means put your arm out and don't drop it.

Sigh, it's really me. I was walking the course in class and at a tunnel I was standing there. one foot in front of the other and rocking back and forth swinging my arms and saying, "get out, get out". and my friend said "STOP! look what you're doing" and I said, "but i'm not serious" and she said, "but if you do that, your muscles are memorizing your movement, do it the right way so you train your body and yourself NOT to rock". and I said "ohmigod, that's bad isn't it?" LOL. I just realized although I was goofing off, but still telling myself (and imaginary Koji), get out and I'm rocking, waving my arms up and down, body back and forth. so bad.

I think Koji should fire me.

 

[k9kreationz]

You can teach Koji about space...but you can't be nice about it. If he steps on you, jumps in front of you, don't stop. You have to let him know that is YOUR space. You keep going, even if that means you bump into him.

In a seminar I went to we set up an exercise to teach about my space/your space. You put your dog in a stay on one side of a jump, you go to the other side, but turn perpendicular to the jump (so your side is facing the jump). Leave just a little bit of room (room enough for the dog to get over, but not take more than a step). Put the hand closest to the jump out, and call the dog over to your hand (it can have a treat in it if you want). You want the dog to come over the jump and turn to face the way you're facing (if you're facing right, the dog should jump, and turn towards the right). It should be pretty tight. The idea is that the dog should NOT jump into you or onto you. If he does, give him a bump and say something like "my space!" Not a correction, but a "hey! what's going on?!" Dogs tell each other that all the time.

Ooohhh....I'll give that a try tonight. I think I need lessons from Miko. Out of all of us, only Miko is the one that knows how to put Koji in his place and that Koji won't try to walk all over (literally).