Novice Gambler (distance work)

[corbinam]

I think Koji should fire me.

Hehehe! If all dogs whose owners made mistakes got to fire them...they would be out there running themselves. And something tells me despite how smart our pups are, they still can't read the numbers OR the course maps

I think our dogs are lucky a) to be involved in a sport that many people don't know about b) to have owners who want them to be able to be what they were bred to be--working dogs c) to have owners who care and want them to be successful!

I can't do the multiple quote thing like you (it looks complicated), but I'll try to answer your questions

1. Question: Would doing this teach him to not go in the tunnel? Well...yes. If you do it at the wrong time. You're right in that timing is everything. If Koji turns around, you've said it too early. I guess what I should have said is that you should tell him "Good boy" after he has committed to the point of no return. You just don't want to reward him for exiting, because to him, you would be rewarding him for coming back to you--the opposite of what you're teaching.

2. When you first started, would your peeling off pull him into you? Yes. People kept telling us to "keep moving sideways" or "pretend you're still moving but really stand still". Neither worked. We spent countless days trying to get him to get away by shuffling our feet, etc...to no avail. I think when we finally started getting it is when we made the challenge easy enough for him to understand. It may have only been 6 inches (seriously!) but he started to understand. Even if at first it's a pattern, the pattern will eventually translate into understanding. One thing that Stuart told us was that we were helping Bentley too much. In his opinion, it's better for you to make it easier for the dog by changing the challenge (make it closer), than it is for you to help by going in farther. If you help every time, they expect it, and take no responsibility.

 

[k9kreationz]

Hehehe! If all dogs whose owners made mistakes got to fire them...they would be out there running themselves. And something tells me despite how smart our pups are, they still can't read the numbers OR the course maps

Don't the BC's read the maps/numbers? LOL.

I think our dogs are lucky a) to be involved in a sport that many people don't know about b) to have owners who want them to be able to be what they were bred to be--working dogs c) to have owners who care and want them to be successful!

So very true. We had to find Koji and job and that's what he needs, which is part of my comment to question #2

I can't do the multiple quote thing like you (it looks complicated), but I'll try to answer your questions

It's easy. Highlight what you want to quote and click what looks like a conversation bubble (left of the # sign) and voila. Quotes!

If Koji turns around, you've said it too early. I guess what I should have said is that you should tell him "Good boy" after he has committed to the point of no return. You just don't want to reward him for exiting, because to him, you would be rewarding him for coming back to you--the opposite of what you're teaching.

Yikes. I think I'll have to yell it when he's 1/4 way in. Any words from me too early and he pulls out. Timing. will need to work on that and maybe try it with just his name to pull him out. see at what point he's committed or something.

One thing that Stuart told us was that we were helping Bentley too much. In his opinion, it's better for you to make it easier for the dog by changing the challenge (make it closer), than it is for you to help by going in farther. If you help every time, they expect it, and take no responsibility.

I like this. I have to remember exactly how you said it. Because I think I help him by moving myself closer, versus moving the obstacles closer.

 

[Caro]

Dont worry - the weaves gamble was in Excellent class (I think equivalent to your Open class). You just start patterning the basic novice combo of tunnels and jumps.

My issues is stopping on the line. Sigh. I know everyone talks about pushing the line, how can you teach that? Cuz Koji has no sense of push.

We had a distance class recently with a guest instructor who only uses distance work when running his dog (he stands in the middle). He also uses patterning to train distance work. What he recommended for training novices is to use a row of 3-4 jumps with a distance line on one side. Pattern the dog with you on the other side of the jumps from the distance line running alongside like you usually would. Once the dog has the hang of the jumps in a row (which you can usually tell by them running ahead of you to go over the jumps) then switch sides and try running the gamble. If the dog looks likeit gets the distance thing and will be happy to run the jumps ahead of you, start using the word 'out' to send the dog to the first jump. Plus when you practice a gamble put a jump on the gamble line on an arc from the jumps so you can get a run up.

1. Question: Would doing this teach him to not go in the tunnel? Well...yes. If you do it at the wrong time. You're right in that timing is everything. If Koji turns around, you've said it too early. I guess what I should have said is that you should tell him "Good boy" after he has committed to the point of no return. You just don't want to reward him for exiting, because to him, you would be rewarding him for coming back to you--the opposite of what you're teaching.

I wouldnt reward part way through a gamble. Most dogs are conditioned to look at us when they hear 'good boy', I think velcro dogs are the worst. Plus you dont want to slow them down in the tunnel and think of you behind them, you want them to think ahead. I think once the dog is committed to the tunnel keep the momentum going and tell them where to go next.

 

[corbinam]

I wouldnt reward part way through a gamble. Most dogs are conditioned to look at us when they hear 'good boy', I think velcro dogs are the worst. Plus you dont want to slow them down in the tunnel and think of you behind them, you want them to think ahead. I think once the dog is committed to the tunnel keep the momentum going and tell them where to go next.

Caro, how would reward the gamble, in that case? I'm just curious, because we've always been taught to reward the correct behavior, and if you can't treat right away, use your voice as a marker. For instance, if I were clicker training in agility, and teaching a send to the tunnel, I would click once the dog committed to the tunnel. Not as the dog was exiting the tunnel, or heading back towards me. That would "click" the wrong behavior. In the case of "good boy" or "yes" or whatever marker you wanted to use, wouldn't you want to do that at the time of the behavior you're trying to reinforce? I would think that if you clicked or said "yes" or whatever when the dog is exiting the tunnel, presumably he/she WILL look at you, and get rewarded for that action. Or if you don't use your voice at all, just treats, you would be forced to reward ONLY when the dog returned to you. The voice serves as a bridge from the correct behavior to a tangible reward.

I'm just curious because this is something I recently heard from Stuart Mah--I'm not trying to be difficult! (Just wanted to make sure I'm not coming across as rude or anything...hard to tell sometimes on the internet!)

 

[Caro]

Thats ok I understand what you mean because we usually reward a behaviour immediately with obedience.

They dont really need you to reward them if they are committed to something as they already have the idea of what to do. Instead reward at the completion of the obstacle (say when they leave the tunnel) but I would only do that if you are just practising that one obstacle, if its 2 obstacles then reward after completing the 2nd etc, and with a sequence you reward at the completion of the sequence.

One thing we do in training is to leave a reward at the end of the sequence - say a treat pouch or a ball. The dog is then focusing on getting the reward and will drive forward and when the dog finishes the sequence you give the reward. If you pattern the sequence first they learn very quickly that at the end of the sequence is the reward and it doesnt take long for them to focus forward rather than behind.

We use the same concept in training other behaviours in agility too, like throwing a treat pouch or ball over a jump when the dog lands, leaving a treat on the table, even having a nose target to teach 2o2o - its about always having the dog focusing forward on the obstacle rather than backwards at you.

 

[corbinam]

Thats ok I understand what you mean because we usually reward a behaviour immediately with obedience.

They dont really need you to reward them if they are committed to something as they already have the idea of what to do. Instead reward at the completion of the obstacle (say when they leave the tunnel) but I would only do that if you are just practising that one obstacle, if its 2 obstacles then reward after completing the 2nd etc, and with a sequence you reward at the completion of the sequence.

One thing we do in training is to leave a reward at the end of the sequence - say a treat pouch or a ball. The dog is then focusing on getting the reward and will drive forward and when the dog finishes the sequence you give the reward. If you pattern the sequence first they learn very quickly that at the end of the sequence is the reward and it doesnt take long for them to focus forward rather than behind.

We use the same concept in training other behaviours in agility too, like throwing a treat pouch or ball over a jump when the dog lands, leaving a treat on the table, even having a nose target to teach 2o2o - its about always having the dog focusing forward on the obstacle rather than backwards at you.

Gotcha--thanks for explaining

 

[Toffee's Mom]

You know.. I am learning a lot.. and gosh I am still SUCH a noob!

I was confused in class today, too...my trainer had to tell me (once again) to zip it) ahhah, or as she says picture the invisible tape over your mouth, Irene, LOL... She was doing a collar grab Toffee (lots of reward for somebody else holding him, LOL)... to go through tunnel.. he was fine doing it previously without the collar grab... BUT I messed up the sequence by saying Toffee good boy and stuff, because he WAS committed to the tunnel, but guess what? It made him turn around and come right back out through my trainers legs, TWICE!

So I get what Caro is saying there, I think..?
Because the whole point was to get him driving him towards (AND THROUGH ) the obstacle, etc... When I said YES.. trainer said don't use it, unless I am planning to reward immediately... Plus when I say good boy he turns around to check in with me, to the point of TURNING inside the tunnel, the little dingdong, hahahaha

 

[corbinam]

I definitely understand where Irene and Caro are coming from...but don't forget one important thing. Teaching a tunnel (for instance) and teaching distance to a tunnel are two TOTALLY different processes.

If I'm teaching a tunnel, yes, I reward for completion. I don't want to say anything in the middle/beginning/halfway. I want the dog to know that if you get in that tunnel, you don't get out until you've done the whole thing.

But, if I'm teaching distance, I reward for the distance, not the completion of the obstacle.

You have to first teach independent obstacle completion before you can start teaching distance, or it doesn't work for the exact reasons that we talked about (you pull your dog out).

 

[Toffee's Mom]

I definitely understand where Irene and Caro are coming from...but don't forget one important thing. Teaching a tunnel (for instance) and teaching distance to a tunnel are two TOTALLY different processes.

If I'm teaching a tunnel, yes, I reward for completion. I don't want to say anything in the middle/beginning/halfway. I want the dog to know that if you get in that tunnel, you don't get out until you've done the whole thing.

But, if I'm teaching distance, I reward for the distance, not the completion of the obstacle.

You have to first teach independent obstacle completion before you can start teaching distance, or it doesn't work for the exact reasons that we talked about (you pull your dog out).

ohhhh, GOOD one
now that makes sense, because Toffee isn't as good with Tunnels as he is with jumps.. so the value for the tunnel (the tire, too) just arent' there yet... I haven't had the chance yet to build it up!?

 

[Silaria]

I thought I'd share a little bit of how I started teaching Edan some distance work. What makes this exercise great is you can use ANYTHING! even lawn chairs. (I'm working with the uprights for my jumps.)

There are a few oopses in the video but rather than retape, I figured I'd leave them so you can see that we aren't 100% perfect either. (Edan was more focused on that fact that I had treats than what I was asking him to do.)

Anyway, I hope it helps a little: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YzZyNQy3jo