Please tell me this is not Mange?

I'll stay out of the raw debate, and just approach this from the angle that some people want to try food elimination trials and are not comfortable feeding raw.
I do carry Hill's prescription diets for certain disease conditions, ( i neither sell nor recommend any non-prescription foods), so i guess one could say i 'sell' Z/D, or D/D but I never use them.
I tend to recommend Wellness, because its readily available, palatable, and seems a quality product, and they make 3 foods (last I checked) that seem well designed for an elimination trial - one with rabbit, one venison , one fish. To make it easier for owners to find, it even says 'one protein/one carbohydrate' on the bag. Of course, other companies have similar foods available.
( As others have stated, just so there is no confusion, what you want for a food elimination trial is one protein, one carb, and both are something your dog has not been eating before. Or, in the case of carbs, something unlikely to be a problem like rice or potato.)
Dermatologists even like a kangaroo based food, just to be extra sure it is 'original.' Incidentally, I avoid the fish one, because foods often use fish meal for their calcium source, so the fish may not be 'original.'
Do a good 6 week elimination trial, they also make treats which 'match' the foods, readily available, and you should have a pretty good answer yes or no as to whether there is dietary involvement.
Just my 2 cents. - Dr. Mac
 
The Quahog said:
I'll stay out of the raw debate, and just approach this from the angle that some people want to try food elimination trials and are not comfortable feeding raw.
I do carry Hill's prescription diets for certain disease conditions, ( i neither sell nor recommend any non-prescription foods), so i guess one could say i 'sell' Z/D, or D/D but I never use them.
I tend to recommend Wellness, because its readily available, palatable, and seems a quality product, and they make 3 foods (last I checked) that seem well designed for an elimination trial - one with rabbit, one venison , one fish. To make it easier for owners to find, it even says 'one protein/one carbohydrate' on the bag. Of course, other companies have similar foods available.
( As others have stated, just so there is no confusion, what you want for a food elimination trial is one protein, one carb, and both are something your dog has not been eating before. Or, in the case of carbs, something unlikely to be a problem like rice or potato.)
Dermatologists even like a kangaroo based food, just to be extra sure it is 'original.' Incidentally, I avoid the fish one, because foods often use fish meal for their calcium source, so the fish may not be 'original.'
Do a good 6 week elimination trial, they also make treats which 'match' the foods, readily available, and you should have a pretty good answer yes or no as to whether there is dietary involvement.
Just my 2 cents. - Dr. Mac
Click to expand...

oh, Good one! Thanks Dr Mac, it sounds pretty much along what my Vet said, as well. Thanks for your input, makes a bit more sense to me now!
He wanted to give me the DD Bison or even the Kangaroo/Oatmeal one but they didn't have either... 6 weeks is what my Vet also recommended.
I think I am doing the right thing with the diet food, for now so I can get a clear picture whether it is dietary or environmental...

My worry was and is that previously it didn't matter what commercial kibble dog food I fed, Toffee was throwing it up almost undigested 6 to 8 hours later (science diet as recommended to me by Vet during Toffee's first year, before he got really sick all of a sudden from it) I ended up switching to mostly raw without a hitch when he was about a year old. I ended up feeding kibble along with raw. I always gave dog kibble as training treats (without any digestion problems)

In addition tho LATELY a roomie moved in and shared her dog food, I think it is Wellness, it ended up being mixed in with Toffee's regularly food, recently... I had switched her GSD with great success to mostly raw, but roomie feeds kibble in the mornings.

So with ALL of this, I NOW realize there are a LOT of stressers, that could have caused all and any of this? But being on the prescribed diet will make it easier to narrow down whether it even is a food borne allergy or not?! I am also starting to think that maybe these digestion problems could have been allergy related all along? Toffee had one emergency allergic reaction which I never figured out what it was... he had the swollen face, and I mean HUGE face and very itchy pads. Shot of Benadryl at the emergency Vet, and it was ok, but not sure what it it was, I DID have a Lobster Cookout and BBQ the day before so maybe it is shellfish?

I feel like a failure because I should have been more vigilant and rigorous with the food and stayed TRUE TO RAW, instead of opting for convenience and allowed my insecurities to supplement dog kibble, not even knowing what it was! Should have listened to the purists on here :o (sorry guys) But all had went so well for a year with him! He was doing so great I did NOT even think about food or allergies for a while now :no:

Sorry about the long post, just writing down my thoughts and as I did I was like OMG lightbulb!? We'll see how it goes after 6 weeks of Salmon and Potato kibble :)
 
Last edited:
ClantyreSheltie said:
I have been trying to stay out of food/health discussions, because I think my stance is fairly clear, but I couldn't let this go, so I apologize in advance.

What variables?

Ingredients in raw chicken:
Chicken.

Ingredients in Hill's:
Potato, Potato Starch, Salmon, Potato Protein, Pork Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid), Soybean Oil (preserved with BHA, propyl gallate and citric acid), Natural Flavor, Dicalcium Phosphate, Fish Meal, Potassium Chloride, Powdered Cellulose, Fish Oil, Iodized Salt, Calcium Carbonate, Choline Chloride, vitamins (L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), Vitamin E Supplement, DL-Methionine, Taurine, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), L-Tryptophan, preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid, Phosphoric Acid, Beta-Carotene, Rosemary Extract.

The Hill's has fish, pork, soy, sawdust, potato, and a bunch of sprayed on chemical "nutrients". How are you going to tell what he is allergic to? This doesn't seem to be simplifying the diet. And you know that cooked foods act on the body totally different than raw foods. So anything you decide he is allergic to in a processed food does not necessarily translate when you go back to raw, i.e. my Collie can't have beef based kibble, but can eat raw beef with no problem.

If you are feeding prey model raw (not prepared or dehydrated "raw"), then you should have no trouble controlling the ingredients list. Starting the Hill's is just a decent into a year of trial and error and loose stool and more allergic reactions, all for nothing when you go back to raw. So simplify the raw diet down to one protein source, and go from there. Get rid of any supplements, treats, etc. Keep it simple.
Click to expand...

I have to agree since you are comfortable feeding raw. Jazz was allergic to Beef and BHA. I did an elimation diet with Cal Natural it would have been so much easier to only deal with one ingredient. Of course whatever diet you do use make sure you stick to only that for atleast 6 weeks.
 
Last edited:
raw elimination trial

Thanks all of you guys!! Those are all very valid points!
Clantyre, of course I totally appreciate your opinion, I welcome anybodies opinion.. God knows I freely share my own all the time, lol

I am very comfortable feeding raw! It sounded to me that the Vet was more comfortable tho using this food, as he said it narrows down and he knows what is in it... There are so many variables in the raw ... Just to eliminate if it is food borne allergy? I also thought of myself, as I indicated before as I thought of what is easier to feed for training treats, etc

In all of your opinions, if I was to try a raw food trial, would I ONLY feed, Beef for example? And 'same' cut of beef? and if so what could I try for training treats? lol (I am transitioning more and more to toy rewards, BUT high value for him is still food.. aka new obstacles, etc..

I am open to all and any suggestions... and I don't mind ringing up the Vet again, that I would like to try the raw food trial, and just be VERY diligent that he NOT get any kibble or treats!?
Any help and all your opinions are appreciated as I am really torn here!
 
Most vets who don't feed raw are not comfortable with it, have little experience with it, and don't necessarily know how to work with it. The prescription foods are the default choice, because that is what they know and understand.

If you feed prey model, there aren't any variables. Meat is meat. Stay away from the prepared raw foods, since those aren't any better than the kibble in complexity.

I would feed meat, bone, and organ from one animal. If you suspect chicken is the allergen, then pick beef or pork. Probably pork, because it's easier to digest. Feed whatever pork parts you want for six weeks. Or feed nothing but chicken for six weeks. Make sure to keep the organ meat in the diet, they need that. If you go that long without issues, then add in one more protein source.

Now, if you suspect it's a non-meat thing that is the allergen, then this diet will also clear that up. You just have to stick with it. I use kibble for treats. :smile2: But there are some dehydrated meat treats out there. They don't make the best treats because they don't break up really easy, but it will keep him in the diet.

I did the opposite thing with my allergy-suspect dog. He was skinny, and hairless, and his skin was constantly irritated. I actually switched him off of raw chicken to kibble on chicken days. : ) And I have yet to use the same kibble twice, I think he is eating Nutro Natural Large Breed Lamb and Rice right now. Should have seen me in the food isle at Petco trying to decide, took forever. Anyway, as long as he doesn't eat raw chicken, he puts weight and hair on just fine. He still gets other meats when I feed those, and sometimes a chicken leg, just for the bone.
 
am sure there is reason why it is not widely known but pork is actually cleanest meat in terms of chemical additives/ hormones/ antibiotics. Pigs do not respond well to chemicals added to their food such as growth simulators, etc- they die as opposed to chickens and cattle stuffed with all kind of milk increasing hormones, body mass increasing hormones, antibiotics to keep infection under control in close quarters....
I have used dehydrated treats by chipping them in smaller single bite pieces and putting them in ziplock bag with moisture in it and rehydrating them to the soft consistency of training treats. I would say if you choose one meat, you can easily use boiled liver with garlic from same group as training treats or cooked meat as well.
 
Halo makes freeze dried pieces of Chicken,Salmon,and beef my Gypsy loves them I think Stell and Chewy's does also they're call Kisses.
I hope you can work all this out so Toffee feels better soon.
 
What about allergies? That was what came to my mind first?

Oops...just read other posts and it seems I'm a little behind in the times here..lol Hey? I got it right though! That's not saying much when the poor little pupper isn't 100% though. Hope it heals fast!
 
Last edited:
Toffee's Mom said:
In all of your opinions, if I was to try a raw food trial, would I ONLY feed, Beef for example? And 'same' cut of beef?
Click to expand...

Ok, BUT. :biggrin2:


Would you also not have to feed some kind of organ? Otherwise wouldn't that defeat the purpose? Or would you feed an organ from the animal of the meat you are feeding? Like if you fed a chicken wing would you then feed some kind of chicken organ?

I'm not raw expert, just throwing it out there. :yes:


I'm not an expert on anything...

...except sleeping and eating. :biggrin2:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top