KarenCurtis
Forums Sage
What type of harness do you use? Both of Minnie's dog class instructors insisted on the front clip harness only, like the easy walk. It helps keep the dog from pulling.
Prozac for Puppies?
- Thread starter Bill Porter
- Start date
DianeP
Forums Enthusiast
Bill, we feel your pain in our household! Your Remy sounds very similar to our Mindy with the exception of being 25 pounds heavier than Mindy. I don’t know how I could do it if Mindy was huge.
We have struggled for the 2.5 years she’s been with us and she is now on three meds. Yes, three. AND they really help and make us all happier. She is on Lexapro (similar to Prozac), she takes Gabapentin which is a mild drug meant for nerve pain but helps with anxiety and also Clonidine which helps with anxiety, and in our case, also helps with her irritable bowel. I wish she was on none of these, but I’ve parented 7 other dogs, including 3 Shelties and none of them have been anywhere near like her. I’ve titled other dogs and have taught agility classes. So, I feel like I have some solid ground to say Mindy is different.
I’ll also publicly admit to taking Prozac, myself, for years and it makes my life better. You don’t magically get cured of tough emotions but it allows you to exist in a way that you can work out and work on problems without becoming totally overwhelmed.
Dogs who are as anxious as Mindy and Remy cannot learn. The meds hopefully get them to a place where they can learn with our help. Imagine being that anxious yourself and how horrible it would feel. Mindy could not nap EVER either, but right now she’s snoozing in the chair with me which NEVER would’ve happened without pharmaceutical help. I know some folks think meds are a cop out but in my humble opinion, when appropriately used they are an act of kindness. You don’t stop training your dog, but you hopefully get a dog who feels safe and calm enough to learn.
Here’s a great presentation on meds by a very reputable vet.
Hope some of this helps!
We have struggled for the 2.5 years she’s been with us and she is now on three meds. Yes, three. AND they really help and make us all happier. She is on Lexapro (similar to Prozac), she takes Gabapentin which is a mild drug meant for nerve pain but helps with anxiety and also Clonidine which helps with anxiety, and in our case, also helps with her irritable bowel. I wish she was on none of these, but I’ve parented 7 other dogs, including 3 Shelties and none of them have been anywhere near like her. I’ve titled other dogs and have taught agility classes. So, I feel like I have some solid ground to say Mindy is different.
I’ll also publicly admit to taking Prozac, myself, for years and it makes my life better. You don’t magically get cured of tough emotions but it allows you to exist in a way that you can work out and work on problems without becoming totally overwhelmed.
Dogs who are as anxious as Mindy and Remy cannot learn. The meds hopefully get them to a place where they can learn with our help. Imagine being that anxious yourself and how horrible it would feel. Mindy could not nap EVER either, but right now she’s snoozing in the chair with me which NEVER would’ve happened without pharmaceutical help. I know some folks think meds are a cop out but in my humble opinion, when appropriately used they are an act of kindness. You don’t stop training your dog, but you hopefully get a dog who feels safe and calm enough to learn.
Here’s a great presentation on meds by a very reputable vet.
Hope some of this helps!
Sharon7
Moderator
It sounds like you are being thoughtful about this decision and have tried pretty much all other avenues. I wonder what it is in their wiring that makes dogs like Mindy and Remy so tightly strung? I would try meds if that's what can help. Totally agree with what Diane wrote above, and I thank her for sharing.
Sandy in CT
Premium Member
I am not a pill person myself so I get your reluctance to try the drug route. But, just because you start the pill doesn't mean you need to stick on it forever. If Remy is so worked up all the time, I imagine the tension in your home must be high as well. Dogs are supposed to be fun - can't be too much fun for you or him.
Maybe start with the Prozac and after he is on it say a week or whenever you see a slight change, start working on something with him. Don't overwhelm him - the anxiety might overwhelm him if he's thrown too much at once. Maybe sitting while someone leaves through a door, getting treats, using the 'watch' command or 'calm' or whatever command you want to use with it. Start small, add on.
I know many are totally against prong or 'choke' collars, but when we had issues with Brodie freaking out in a city setting when we were visiting our oldest, my trail trainer suggested the micro prong collar in the link here https://www.kimberlandcollars.com/ourcollars/2016/7/1/the-mini-the-micro-the-ultra-micro She does not use any other collars other than these kimberland micro collars - she trains dogs for NY State. We live in a very quiet, small neighborhood and when we would visit our son, he is in a city setting, little patches of grass, houses close together, lots of traffic - Brodie would freak. Using the micro-prong collar, we clip using a caribiner to his normal collar, with Remy I think I would use it in conjunction with both a harness and collar. But what we found was that using the collar relaxed Brodie. It was like it released him from his 'job' of having to be on high alert and he let us worry about stuff. I used the collar for a bit less than a year whenever we were in settings where Brodie seemed on high alert. Now we barely ever use it but I do carry a second one in my truck in case we are ever in a high anxiety situation. With use, and LOTS of treats for not reacting, Brodie has settled down - in a high activity area, we do still use his normal collar and a harness together just in case something happened - there is a back up in place.
Remy is still very young, going through many growths stages. I would do whatever you feel you need to do now and work on training him as you do it. He needs to know YOU are the protector so it can release him from having to protect you all against every leaf, squirrel, movement. I think you will see some change in him now that he is neutered, take advantage of it, use it to your benefit, train with extra effort. I think without some of his incoming raging hormones he will relax a bit, age will help him to relax a bit more and if you do the prozac, you'll have that as well. In a year, you might have a totally different dog than you have now.
Maybe start with the Prozac and after he is on it say a week or whenever you see a slight change, start working on something with him. Don't overwhelm him - the anxiety might overwhelm him if he's thrown too much at once. Maybe sitting while someone leaves through a door, getting treats, using the 'watch' command or 'calm' or whatever command you want to use with it. Start small, add on.
I know many are totally against prong or 'choke' collars, but when we had issues with Brodie freaking out in a city setting when we were visiting our oldest, my trail trainer suggested the micro prong collar in the link here https://www.kimberlandcollars.com/ourcollars/2016/7/1/the-mini-the-micro-the-ultra-micro She does not use any other collars other than these kimberland micro collars - she trains dogs for NY State. We live in a very quiet, small neighborhood and when we would visit our son, he is in a city setting, little patches of grass, houses close together, lots of traffic - Brodie would freak. Using the micro-prong collar, we clip using a caribiner to his normal collar, with Remy I think I would use it in conjunction with both a harness and collar. But what we found was that using the collar relaxed Brodie. It was like it released him from his 'job' of having to be on high alert and he let us worry about stuff. I used the collar for a bit less than a year whenever we were in settings where Brodie seemed on high alert. Now we barely ever use it but I do carry a second one in my truck in case we are ever in a high anxiety situation. With use, and LOTS of treats for not reacting, Brodie has settled down - in a high activity area, we do still use his normal collar and a harness together just in case something happened - there is a back up in place.
Remy is still very young, going through many growths stages. I would do whatever you feel you need to do now and work on training him as you do it. He needs to know YOU are the protector so it can release him from having to protect you all against every leaf, squirrel, movement. I think you will see some change in him now that he is neutered, take advantage of it, use it to your benefit, train with extra effort. I think without some of his incoming raging hormones he will relax a bit, age will help him to relax a bit more and if you do the prozac, you'll have that as well. In a year, you might have a totally different dog than you have now.
TheDailyPainter
Forums Enthusiast
You have gotten some really good advice here...I'll just chime in a bit with a question I have that might help you in your decision process. Do you see Remy as fearful and skittish, cowering away from these things, or bold and assertive barking his head off at triggers? Because if the latter, maybe it would be worth it to work with an experienced behaviorist who might be able to see if there are things you are missing in your attempts to train around this problem. I'm not one to reach for a drug either, and I can tell you from human experience sometimes natural things like cbd or chamomile tea have had the opposite effect on me, and since your dog can't talk and tell you how he feels about the meds, it's a worry. I know you will do what you feel is best. If it's any consolation River didn't nap at a year old either, and if I didn't work with him diligently I think he would have been impossible to take on walks. Good luck to you, keep us posted on how you go.
DianeP
Forums Enthusiast
A couple things I’ll add to what I said.
Purina makes a probiotic called Calming Care which might also help. The canine science is showing a connection between the gut and the brain. Some dogs feel more relaxed when when their gut bacteria is more balanced. It is by prescription.
SSRIs like Prozac can take 6-8 weeks to kick in fully. If you go that route and don’t see immediate results, don’t despair.
Amy Cook’s online classes through Fenzi Dog Sports Academy helped me so much in figuring out how to help Mindy navigate the world. Amy’s got a few. Here’s a link for one of them. I found this one a life saver.
https://www.fenzidogsportsacademy.com/index.php/courses/7467
Hugs to everyone!
Purina makes a probiotic called Calming Care which might also help. The canine science is showing a connection between the gut and the brain. Some dogs feel more relaxed when when their gut bacteria is more balanced. It is by prescription.
SSRIs like Prozac can take 6-8 weeks to kick in fully. If you go that route and don’t see immediate results, don’t despair.
Amy Cook’s online classes through Fenzi Dog Sports Academy helped me so much in figuring out how to help Mindy navigate the world. Amy’s got a few. Here’s a link for one of them. I found this one a life saver.
https://www.fenzidogsportsacademy.com/index.php/courses/7467
Hugs to everyone!
Bill Porter
Forums Enthusiast
Let me just say that I LOVE YOU PEOPLE! This Forum has always been helpful but this thread has restored my faith in humanity as well as my confidence as a puppy parent.
The vet said that it would be 3-4 weeks before Remy's neutering would have any potential effect on his behavior. She also said it would be 4-6 weeks before the build up of Prozac would show a material change in Remy's craziness. She also said 20mg is sort of the middle dose and that we would tailor the dosage based upon his alertness, etc. This was not intended as a forever remedy but mostly a 6 mo to 1 year trial to see if we can get Remy into a more relaxed routine.
To answer some of your questions:
1) His harness is a Kong (they don't make it though) with 2 metal clips in the back above the shoulder. It was the only one that fit his body comfortably and enabled me to feel good about him not breaking free. I took it to a seamstress who sewed in extra support. I also use additional metal brackets and wiring to reinforce the leash in case part of it breaks. If it breaks in the middle of the chain, Remy wears an electronic collar on walks so that I can stop him from going into the street as a very last resort (I hope I never have to use that option). I should see if a front clip harness can fit his chest. Do you have a recommendation on brand?
- on the collar restraints: Remy will choke himself to death on a regular collar on a walk. The micro collar suggested above seems like that would potentially really hurt him since he gives no care to what is restraining him when he's upset at a vehicle. I'm not opposed to trying one but I'm a bit fearful that his 40lb, hard-pulling self would damage his throat.
2) Remy has wide eyes and rotates his head around quickly as if on high alert. Sirens, loud sounds, etc. make him bark. So does sneezing, coughing, and other such sounds. Seeing a car go by triggers aggressive barking and pulling TOWARDS the cars. No clue what would happen if left to his own devices. I have tried to sit in the front yard and reward him with treats as cars drive by but he goes into his own world. He can't ride well in a car either. He used to bark but I take a very dominate position with him in the beginning now, so he doesn't bark but cries the whole time instead. I live in Houston, cars are everywhere, and he tries to see every single one.
3) I, too, have seen the connection between a happy stomach and a happy dog. That Dr. Marty video I posted discussed that in depth and I've done some research on it as well. He's very happy on Fromm and his movements have been great since switching. Sometimes when he's walked though, he'll squat down immediately in the middle of the walkway and have a not so nice movement that bag(s) don't quite work if you know what I mean. The vet did recommend some things to put on his food that might help.
Thank you all again for sharing personal information and your suggestions. I am incredibly grateful for it all!
Bill
The vet said that it would be 3-4 weeks before Remy's neutering would have any potential effect on his behavior. She also said it would be 4-6 weeks before the build up of Prozac would show a material change in Remy's craziness. She also said 20mg is sort of the middle dose and that we would tailor the dosage based upon his alertness, etc. This was not intended as a forever remedy but mostly a 6 mo to 1 year trial to see if we can get Remy into a more relaxed routine.
To answer some of your questions:
1) His harness is a Kong (they don't make it though) with 2 metal clips in the back above the shoulder. It was the only one that fit his body comfortably and enabled me to feel good about him not breaking free. I took it to a seamstress who sewed in extra support. I also use additional metal brackets and wiring to reinforce the leash in case part of it breaks. If it breaks in the middle of the chain, Remy wears an electronic collar on walks so that I can stop him from going into the street as a very last resort (I hope I never have to use that option). I should see if a front clip harness can fit his chest. Do you have a recommendation on brand?
- on the collar restraints: Remy will choke himself to death on a regular collar on a walk. The micro collar suggested above seems like that would potentially really hurt him since he gives no care to what is restraining him when he's upset at a vehicle. I'm not opposed to trying one but I'm a bit fearful that his 40lb, hard-pulling self would damage his throat.
2) Remy has wide eyes and rotates his head around quickly as if on high alert. Sirens, loud sounds, etc. make him bark. So does sneezing, coughing, and other such sounds. Seeing a car go by triggers aggressive barking and pulling TOWARDS the cars. No clue what would happen if left to his own devices. I have tried to sit in the front yard and reward him with treats as cars drive by but he goes into his own world. He can't ride well in a car either. He used to bark but I take a very dominate position with him in the beginning now, so he doesn't bark but cries the whole time instead. I live in Houston, cars are everywhere, and he tries to see every single one.
3) I, too, have seen the connection between a happy stomach and a happy dog. That Dr. Marty video I posted discussed that in depth and I've done some research on it as well. He's very happy on Fromm and his movements have been great since switching. Sometimes when he's walked though, he'll squat down immediately in the middle of the walkway and have a not so nice movement that bag(s) don't quite work if you know what I mean. The vet did recommend some things to put on his food that might help.
Thank you all again for sharing personal information and your suggestions. I am incredibly grateful for it all!
Bill
Piper's mom
Moderator
Agree 100% on the use of meds! Finnie has a mild case but still bad enough..it’s the reactive ness that drives me crazy! He can be fine one minute then I pick up the ???..(.fill in the blank) and the barking starts (which also gets Piper going). I did have him on clomicalm but since we’ve been locked down I took him off. May start him back on it again as we start to go out more...
Piper's mom
Moderator
So glad this forum was able to help you! Try adding some pumpkin to his food daily (a couple tablespoons) also I use slippery elm when my boys have a loose poop. It’s a rare thing here as I feed raw but when I give it they normalize within a day. Pumpkin though on a regular basis should help him though.
Sandy in CT
Premium Member
This is most likely anxiety related.
If it gives you any sense of hope, Brodie became a reactive nightmare after lockdowns, I say nightmare but from the sounds of it not nearly anything close to Remy. The car thing is their prey drive and unfortunately you might suppress it a bit, but if he has high prey drive, the training will be a forever thing. My neighbor, don't ask me what I call him, has taught Brodie to react to red cars - from driving by my house and gunning his engine - he drives a red VW. We're successful with many things, but man does a red car peak Brodie's interest from a LONG distance away! Time, maturing, he is calming down. Don't discount the micro-prong collar - not as a one shot thing, but used along with your harness. It would allow you control of what affects him and they are used successfully on uber reactive dogs. They do offer plastic covers you can put over the prongs although these particular micro prong collars are really, nicely made, blunt tips and there is a placement for them to be effective without harm - uber easy with the shelties cuz the collars sort of stick in their fur and stay where it belongs. Maybe an option for the future. Sounds like your vet has given you hope - might see some positive changes in the next 6 weeks.