So Leo went after pitbull...

I beg to differ... wound puncture created by toy breed for example will be significantly different than large breed by size, depth and fatality. I am not sure if there is actual jaw locking or not but as Sheltie go they generally bred to have soft bites... while some guarding breeds genetically bred to use their mouth with force.

The deadliest dogs

Merritt Clifton, editor of Animal People, has conducted an unusually detailed study of dog bites from 1982 to the present. (Clifton, Dog attack deaths and maimings, U.S. & Canada, September 1982 to November 13, 2006; click here to read it.) The Clifton study show the number of serious canine-inflicted injuries by breed. The author's observations about the breeds and generally how to deal with the dangerous dog problem are enlightening.

According to the Clifton study, pit bulls, Rottweilers, Presa Canarios and their mixes are responsible for 74% of attacks that were included in the study, 68% of the attacks upon children, 82% of the attacks upon adults, 65% of the deaths, and 68% of the maimings. In more than two-thirds of the cases included in the study, the life-threatening or fatal attack was apparently the first known dangerous behavior by the animal in question. Clifton states:

If almost any other dog has a bad moment, someone may get bitten, but will not be maimed for life or killed, and the actuarial risk is accordingly reasonable. If a pit bull terrier or a Rottweiler has a bad moment, often someone is maimed or killed--and that has now created off-the-chart actuarial risk, for which the dogs as well as their victims are paying the price.

Clifton's opinions are as interesting as his statistics. For example, he says, "Pit bulls and Rottweilers are accordingly dogs who not only must be handled with special precautions, but also must be regulated with special requirements appropriate to the risk they may pose to the public and other animals, if they are to be kept at all."

Add to the strength and size of the dog, the terrier tenacity. They are willing to hold on though a great deal of pain and attack to their being. Brenda Aloff describes in her book Dog Aggression, an anecdotal story(an example of how bad bitch fights could get) about Smooth fox terrier(her breed) that would hold onto the other dog if they should get into a fight until one being bitten was dead or the one biting smothered itself. They would need to be broken up by some mechanical means like a wooden stick to pry their mouths off. The same is true of Pit bulls. Old time pit fighters used break sticks to get the dogs apart. A dog that gave up was not highly prized so generations of breeding fixed that trait. Golden retrievers were not bred for such a purpose but with soft mouths.

Although I have been bitten by more Goldens than pit bulls.
 
Actually, the American Pit Bull Terrier rated higher than the Golden Retriever in the American Temperament Test Society's study:
http://www.atts.org/stats1.html

Also, they are used as certified therapy and SAR dogs. Two of the dogs from the Micheal Vick case were rehabilitated and became therapy dogs.

Pit Bulls, more specifically Staffordshire Terriers, I think, were considered excellent nanny/family dogs in the early 20th century. If you look at old cartoons and TV shows from back then, Pit Bulls show up quite often. The show "Our Gang", for example. Even the cartoon character Betty Boop had a Pit Bull.
As did Hellen Keller.
The Target mascot, Bullseye, is a Pit Bull, too.

Pit Bulls do have a tendency towards dog aggression, though, but they were NOT bred for human aggression. And even with other dogs, they are not completely bad, depends on the dog. Treader has been with Pit Bulls and not suffered anything from it.
Pit Bulls seem very common in my area and in general I've found them among the friendliest dogs to meet. The animal shelter seems to get a lot of them, too, and many of them do get put up for adoption--which requires passing a temperament test.

"“Pit Bulls have more bite pressure per square inch (PSI) than any
other breed.” This is absolutely false.

Tests that have been done comparing the bite pressure of several
breeds showed pressure PSI (per square inch) to be considerably lower
than some wild estimates that have been made. Testing has shown that
the domestic dog averages about 320 lbs of pressure per square inch.
Recently Dr. Brady Barr of National Geographic conducted a comparative
test between a Pit Bull, a Rottweiler, and a German Shepherd. The Pit
Bull had the LOWEST PSI OF THE THREE."
source: http://www.realpitbull.com/myths.html

Look, I agree--big dogs can do more damage. But Pit Bulls aren't bad dogs, just the most common victims of bad ownership these days. Back in the 70s I hear it was the German Shepherds, then years later the Dobermans, etc.
You hear about them the most because they are useful in the dog fighting ring--they have that Terrier tenacity, which can be used in a good or bad way. (Just about any dog can be used in a bad way, really.)
Also because of the news media--face it, they are out there to make a buck and scary stories about scary-looking hellhounds sell. News journalists are not experts on identifying breeds and unfortunately Pit Bulls are easy to misidentify--LABS have been mistaken for them. Also, I've read that they often will not publish the story if the dog was definitely not a Pit Bull.

Not trying to fuel an argument, just I feel strongly about this, especially as the owner of a breed often considered untrustworthy and it hurts like heck when people tell me things like my German Shepherd is going to turn on me just because that's what they do (I've even had someone who never even met my dogs tell me to put Cookie down just for being a GSD when I told them about her)...I can only imagine how those Pit Bull owners must feel.

You're entitled to your own opinions and all...if you'd rather stay away from certain dogs or not own them, that's perfectly fine and your right.
This subject is one of the few things that will make me go off on a tantrum pretty much no matter who says it anymore, but what actually irks me is when people try to get Pit Bulls banned because of the hype, forcing others to give up their loyal pets because of mass misinformation. As long as someone doesn't want the breed banned, I'm good. xD


ETA:
As far as jaws locking, this is very easily debunked by a look at canine anatomy
 
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as Leo saga continues , he was placed Friday at daycare with Doberman, I was told that Dobe held his own:lol:
Apparently Dobe is about 10 months old and shy, so outgoing and bossy Leo was a good combination...
as far as to deserved or underserved rep for pits and such I would rather not to find out... we have couple of GSD in our pooch park who are bad news/ for a proven reason/ ... when I see powerful breed coming towards us, unless I know the owner and dog and can trust them to know what they doing I would cross the street or take my dogs out of pooch park.... safer that way...
 
I understand what you mean, but I think it's a good idea to be careful about approaching any strange dog until you know something about their temperament with strangers and other dogs. Any dog can have reservations due to lack of socialization and such and if they are not used to other dogs or people they can strike out out of self-defense.
Not trying to seem...uh, I dunno, pushy or anything, I just think that's important to know...whether you're more cautious with more powerful breeds or not is okay with me...meh...


Treader (Sheltie mix) tends to be pushy with other dogs (in an ethusiastic way) to some degree, so I do worry a bit about him provoking them.
I've been trying to teach him to act calmly when he sees another dog, making him sit and stuff before he can go meet him. (If at all.) And having to sit when he is raring to go meet another dog really irritates him at the moment, so much he'll even begin growling at the other dog. Some people think he's aggressive now...=/
(I'm trying to teach him that obeying will bring a reward, he's just being a grump about it in this area. XP)

Cookie, the German Shepherd, I call a grumpy old lady. xD She's nearly 13 years old. As a puppy she had a bad experience with another dog in addition to very little socialization, so she's iffy with other dogs. But better than she used to be, after we began taking her places with us more and teaching her a better way to act. I didn't know as much about training back then though as I had thought (not now, either) so I could have done a better job on her than I did. My dad was surprised I got as far with her as I did, though.
 
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as Leo saga continues , he was placed Friday at daycare with Doberman, I was told that Dobe held his own:lol:
Apparently Dobe is about 10 months old and shy, so outgoing and bossy Leo was a good combination...
as far as to deserved or underserved rep for pits and such I would rather not to find out... we have couple of GSD in our pooch park who are bad news/ for a proven reason/ ... when I see powerful breed coming towards us, unless I know the owner and dog and can trust them to know what they doing I would cross the street or take my dogs out of pooch park.... safer that way...


I hear ya. I have met three GSD around here, and not nice at all. One visiting on my front porch, one coming in under my fence (bending a heavy gauge up in the air), and one that is fenced behind me.

The one bending my fence in the air scared the holy you know what out of me. That one came in vicious. Picked up Lucky and ran. I had another fence put in, to make sure that would never happen again.
 
I would suggest volunteering at a local Humane Society as a way to learn more about dog behaviours. It's very difficult to learn about body language/aggression indicators from books or CDs - it's something that you learn by handling as many dogs of as many breeds as you possibly can. Many Humane Societies now offer training programs for volunteers, and (as long as the program is strong) you will finish the program with a stronger dog training background, a greater understanding of canine behaviour, and an awareness of body language which will help you with your dogs and others you meet in the dog park.

The reality is that your dog was the rude one (I loved your line about the pit vs. the "bully"), and you were right to redirect it's behaviour - not because of danger from the pit bull, but because it was completely unfair to the pit bull and the pit bull's owner for your dog to be behaving that way. Your friend was incorrect in advising you to let the situation play out - the other dog had the right to not feel intimidated by your dog's behaviour. If you had let it play out, a) you would have implicitly given permission to your dog to be a jerk, b) the other dog would have had a negative experience at the dog park - which isn't fair to it, or c) the pit bull could have reacted to your dog's behaviour in a negative way and tried to bite it. Because of the strength of the breed, this would have caused damage, and even though your dog was the agitator, the pit bull would have been blamed because his/her bite causes more damage, and the breed unfortunately has a bad reputation. Obviously this would have been completely unfair to the pit bull, so I'm glad you showed the good judgment of calling your dog off.

I was disappointed to see so many negative comments about the larger breeds - pits, dobermans, GSDs, and rottis. I've trained over 500 dogs (including many that had major behaviour issues) - the only three who showed any signs of aggression towards me or one of my dogs were a Newfie, a Great Dane, and a Papillon. Food for thought.
 
I was disappointed to see so many negative comments about the larger breeds - pits, dobermans, GSDs, and rottis. I've trained over 500 dogs (including many that had major behaviour issues) - the only three who showed any signs of aggression towards me or one of my dogs were a Newfie, a Great Dane, and a Papillon. Food for thought.

I would consider you very, LUCKY :biggrin2:
 
Hi there,

I guess there are more sources, I'd try to do some research on the internet as for canine language, but I really enjoyed Calming signals by Turid Rugaas (hope my spelling is ok). You can get either book or DVD. It's not too complex but you can find some basic ideas about it.

As for larger breeds - it's sad, but I'm not too keen of GS, Rottie, Pit bulls etc. either. I love all dogs, but sadly many people don't realize how hard it is to raise up dog, train him and give him a proper exercice. I think especially breeds like Pitts and rotties need sensitive approach and somewhat natural leader. I agree it's not the breed itself but when I take pitbulls, I've had only bad experiences with those dogs -it's fair to mention it was usually owner's fault, but you can't help yourself but feel bad when you meet these dogs. Maybe i wasn't lucky enough, but when I meet pitbulls they're usually "controlled" by some arrogant young men who are not that interested in a dog itself but rather enjoy the ostensible power and that others are afraid of them. I happen to have two pitbulls with two young men around 25 in our neighbourhood and nope, you don't wanna meet them. ALSO even when I realize it's not fault of the breed, you have to admit most of pitbulls have problem with other dogs. We have one friend with pitbull mix from the shelter and he has no problem with my dog, but who knows... maybe it's because my dog also have no problem w/ any other dogs. I guess, although he's very wild, he's also submissive and that's why he gets along with others (talkin about my pup). So all in all, I love all dogs, but to say at least I'm veeeery careful when it comes to pitbulls and rotties. BUT I think pitts are great family dogs - i know they love people. Though, I don't like rotties in general since I was nearly eaten up by one rottie when i was a kid :lol: We didnt do anything bad to the dog, but she found a bone and probably thought we were about to take it from her. I'll never forget the growl, "attack position" and her look. I don't want to generalize here, but I think that these dogs belong only to experienced trainers/people. :wink2: It's beyond sad when you meet pitbull w/o a cage, young little girl is trying to pull him away from you, obviously very scared and struggling as pit is way stronger and she's trying to hold on the fence near to her in desperate attempt to stop up dog. And nope, I didnt make this up. It happened just few weeks ago. :lol: I don't have to tell you why I was worried.
As for locking jaws, I don't really know if that's truth/ neither I ever cared about it, but two weeks ago, our friend told us that she was walking her jack russel with another friend, when they heard horrible scream and then found out that german shepherd attacked some little one and that they couldn't get him off the little dog. They said his jaws were in spasm. Then someone came over and stuffed shepherd's mouth with snow and eventually he'd let dog go. :uhoh: Just sayin, I wasn't there, but I guess it can happen.
 
I've never really been vindictive (for lack of better word) of any dog, even when they've growled and barked at me and even before I learned how dog behavior works, but that's just me. (And, yes, I do know better than to approach a dog that's snarling at me and things like that. It's a warning to be heeded.)
The people around here I guess are more responsible owners than some in other areas. Most of the dogs, big and small, I meet in the park (not the dog park, we don't have one) and out on walks and stuff appear to be well-behaved. They may pull on the leash and things like that, they aren't usually aggressive. Breeds like German Shepherds and Pit Bulls seem to be very common here, too.
 
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agree, it is not breeds themselves but the people who owns them and for what reason- if you get powerful breed that genetically meant to guard and protect, owner has responsibility to know what the #$% they are doing...
even with this pit that Leo was going after... seeing how Leo goes on and on I am attempting to leave, so my BIL and our dogs are going inside of the entry double door cage of the pooch park and what do you know ... the owner of pit comes right in with her dog... not enough that I had hard time distancing my dog from hers but she is wedging her dog right next to mine in small entry cage????
Our training facility is offering class now on dog behavior so I am signing up.. good news I was assured that I should trust Leo enough to know who he can go after:eek2:
 
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