Straight front???

From a non-show person listening in, it strikes me that the criteria that judges may be using is suspect.

My understanding of showing is that they need to feel the dog's structure from head to toe to determine if they meet standard. But they only get about 30 seconds per dog! And the rest of the "show" is how fluffy the dog is and pretty a gait they have...

Maybe I'm getting a little jaded here....
 
BarbV said:
From a non-show person listening in, it strikes me that the criteria that judges may be using is suspect.

My understanding of showing is that they need to feel the dog's structure from head to toe to determine if they meet standard. But they only get about 30 seconds per dog! And the rest of the "show" is how fluffy the dog is and pretty a gait they have...

Maybe I'm getting a little jaded here....
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The thing is, gait can tell you a lot about how a dog is put together... gait isn't just "pretty". Handling can cover some flaws that show up when a dog gaits (eg. moving the dogs really fast), but movement can speak volumes. Judges don't always listen, but it's there. HopeShelties touches upon this in her last post on reach and drive - a straight-fronted dog can't "reach" as far as a correctly-angulated one, and takes shorter steps.

There is an argument that a really, really good judge doesn't need to touch the dogs, and can pick them based on movement alone. I can't comment one way or the other; given the option, I'd prefer the judge who examines thoughtfully!
 
Exactly. Now with that being said ive seen many a choppy gait in the ring winning, however its easier to pull off at most shows here since the ring size is usually 10 x 15 feet so you can often not get up to correct gaiting. So ive found the judges are not looking at movement as much at indoor shows, Out door ones where the rings are huge I see more wins with movement..Its harder to coverup poor movement when your going 20 x 30 ring size! Noah can cruise in the ring with little effort (not so true with me:lol:) heres a pic of him at an outdoor show, although its a bit blurry...showing his reach..http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=31412847&l=806206d9e6&id=1467473653
 
very interesting :yes:
so if we take some pix and/or videos of our dogs- someone here could maybe give us an idea if our dog is somewhere close to correct?
 
tofu pup said:
When the front angulation is straightened out, the neck comes up out of the shoulders - to the point of a ewe neck. When you add enough coat, this creates a "showier" outline. If the front angulation is correct, the neck isn't as vertical, and the outline is less showy. It's another case of correct, more moderate dogs being passed over for incorrect, more visually-arresting ones.
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This comment about the neck reminds of another comment that I've heard which is probably related to a lack of correct angulation -- "The ears are over the shoulders and feet, instead of being forward of the shoulder." Might this be another way to spot a dog with too straight a front?
 
So the worst front I have ever seen... use your imagination...

It was a Standard Poodle. The handler kept putting her hand under the chest and "popping" the dog back up. Closer inspection showed that the front legs were so far in front of the torso that they failed to support the torso. So the dog's front legs were bowing out forward, causing the topline to sink. Then add the ewe neck, with the ears behind the front legs (which wasn't hard based on where the front legs were). Not only would I have been embarrassed to have bred a dog that unsound, I certainly would not have asked a handler to show it. I should have gotten a picture, maybe I did. I did have my camera that day, I'll have to boot the other computer and see.
 
This is a timely topic for me. Bock's front is getting quite straight as he is growing. It wasn't the greatest when we evaluted him at 8 wks but it was livable for a sheltie, he had a lot of other nice qualities. But if his front doesn't come back, I don't think I can go with him as part of my potential future breeding/show dogs. People tell me he'll do fine but I don't think I could live with that kind of front. I do do preformance and a straight front is not what I am after. I have been thinking about his front since Christmas and it is just killing me.

Diva does have a nice front. That was the quality tht everyone who evaluated her said was her best quality so to lose it in one generation would be silly. Porter does have her front and body and a much better head. If he didn't he would be way over sized as it is Bock and him are the same size only difference is the placement of the shoulders. Sometimes breeding is making those hard decisions on who to go with, if anybody, for the future of the breed and your breeding program not just who looks pretty and is the showiest or who you like the best.

This picture of Diva is at 12 months, she is naked, but you can see the lay back of her shoudler. Diva has very nice movement. It is effortless. One thing I might like with Diva is a coulpe tenths added to the length of her legs. Just alittle bit. :smile2:

http://www.sheltieforums.com/album.php?albumid=172&pictureid=1905
 
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That happened with Lark's brother, Orion. I had a friend looking at him as a serious agility prospect, but the older he got, the straighter his front seemed to get, and I told her I didn't think he'd be suitable. While he had the drive and temperament, and a nice rear, I just couldn't see placing him doing a job where he would be more likely to break down over the long haul. This wasn't a casual agility home where he'd only train and trial every once in a while. The odds of him breaking down due to his front assembly I felt made him unsuitable as an agility prospect. So, he went to a pet home instead.
 
To tell a correct front hands on is not that difficult as long as you know what you are doing and what bones you are feeling of. You generally want the scapula and humerus to form about a 90 degree right angle from each other. I genarally feel this by putting my index finger on the scapula and thumb on the humerus. You also want the humerus and forearm to be about the same length. For the front, front you want to feel the sternum(that little bone in the middle) jutting out slightly to make a rounded feeling of the front.
 
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