Swtching from eukanuba to Holistic Selectt

[missjenneygirl]

In January it will be 25 years, and I still consider myself a novice. My first mentors, are Tom and Nioma Coen of Macdega. My first 2 show girls came from them. They handled the dogs, and I conditioned them under their ever watchful, supervising eye. The learning curve was very vertical! I learned volumes from them, and still seek their advice.

Now, more on my own, I have the benefit of my dear, dear friend Karen Henley of Shelhaven. We co-own many of our dogs, and all breedings are a joint decision. We constantly discuss future plans for the dogs. Our goals are the same, and it lets us have access to different breedings, without each of us running large numbers of dogs.

 

[BarbV]

In January it will be 25 years, and I still consider myself a novice. My first mentors, are Tom and Nioma Coen of Macdega. My first 2 show girls came from them. They handled the dogs, and I conditioned them under their ever watchful, supervising eye. The learning curve was very vertical! I learned volumes from them, and still seek their advice.

Now, more on my own, I have the benefit of my dear, dear friend Karen Henley of Shelhaven. We co-own many of our dogs, and all breedings are a joint decision. We constantly discuss future plans for the dogs. Our goals are the same, and it lets us have access to different breedings, without each of us running large numbers of dogs.

I truly hope we are not about to be challenging her on her breeding experience to judge her opinion on food!

Cripes! Please don't got there people.....I think I may have accidentally pointed that way but it was not my intention.

 

[missjenneygirl]

My analogy of the carrot and cheese were just for effect...that's all.

The point I was trying make all along is, if you change foods, (mostly from one protein % to another) you can sometimes see uneven growth. If you don't, hooray for you and your dog. If you do, it is a shame, and tough to get back.

So the bottom line is this, everyone will do what they think is best for their puppy. I only gave the information that I have witnessed and work within.

I think the quality of my dogs and winning records speak for themselves.

 

[JLSOhio51]

Honestly my take on that is unless there is a double blind scientific study - then what we have is speculation based on observation. Expert observation for sure, but still what you would consider anectdotal evidence...

I'm not sure that a double blind study would necessarily be required since that would (almost by necessity) require two additional subject foods to be physically constituted to replicate the characteristics of the target food (to preserve the anonymity of the double blind). That may be difficult to do. But, the object should be to replicate as many of the control specs of a double blind as is practical to give reliable results. It isn't that I don't see the value of the anecdotal evidence of breeders (or any other group), it's just that there are too many variables (of both the data providers and the conditions from breeder to breeder to pinpoint why the anecdotes may prove correct (or not). In the long run, they may turn out to be correct, but without knowing what makes their anecdotal results correct, even the best efforts on the part of us non breeders would be unlikely to produce the same results.

I fail to see how switching from what is a good quality food ( Eukanuba) to a similar or better quality food ( Acana, TOTW, Holistic, Raw, insert your pick here) will impact growth negatively on a cellular level...

This would make the assertions more logical for me. If the assertion was: only switch from a lower to higher grade diet but never from higher to lower, I could more easily follow the logic. Again, I am not totally discounting anecdotal data, only having trouble connecting certain dots.

Not convinced over here.

If this info is truly well known within the breeder's circles, surely somewhere there has to be sources that have been recorded. I will continue to research. Perhaps a call to the Ohio State veterinary group may be necessary.

 

[Lightplum]

No Barb I believe what missjenneygirl is saying no matter what food your puppy comes with there is a reason to why they were being fed that..most times it is backed up with years of trial and error and what works best for their dogs/puppies.
We as breeders pass ideas, theory's, hypothesis off each other. Our pool of knowledge on OUR dogs and health is so vast alot of the time it surpasses general vets knowledge about our dogs nutritional needs.

 

[EJHUNTL]

I don't really follow dog shows, but I think I recall reading on here that the very top show sheltie in the US was on a Proplan diet. Does that mean that Proplan is the very best dog food out there for all shelties at all ages? I don't think you can make that connection. I suspect that diet is only part of what goes into making a champion show dog. Cost also probably plays a factor as to why the top show dog isn't being fed one of the premium brands. I wonder what the top agility sheltie eats?

Definitely not judging breeding experience here - I know next to nothing about breeding dogs and that is not likely to change as I don't have any intentions of ever becoming a breeder. That does not mean however that I have to agree without question to every assertion a breeder makes based only on their experience and without supporting evidence. Especially when the matter is something this serious that should be scientifically demonstrable.

Seems to me if this were happening all the time, vets would know about it and breeders would commonly be providing warnings and far as I can tell that isn't happening. I've only ever dealt with 3 breeders (all experienced) and none expressed concern about my intention to switch food - they told me how to do the transition and none brought this up as something to be worried about. All suggested staying away from grocery store brands, and one fed raw but understood that it wasn't for everyone.

 

[JLSOhio51]

I truly hope we are not about to be challenging her on her breeding experience to judge her opinion on food!

Cripes! Please don't got there people.....I think I may have accidentally pointed that way but it was not my intention.

I am not sure who specifically this is directed to, so I will offer my $.02. I am not challenging anyone's experience or opinion. I came here to learn and I cannot do that without expressing my opinion and asking for clarification when something doesn't add up for me. Perhaps my mind will change on an issue, perhaps not, but either way, I will learn something.

 

[missjenneygirl]

I think stripping away all the words, the important thing for any puppy is

You want a steady, consistent growth rate throughout, until the puppy is a mature dog.

I know of two Rottweilers from the same litter, raised in the same household that had both their front legs cast after surgery to straighten them.
Also my neighbors Akita (from a pet store) had the surgery and went around with pins and a frame protruding for weeks.

Next time you speak with your vet, ask if they have had any experience with uneven growth of the bones in the front legs.
__________________

 

[EJHUNTL]

I am not sure who specifically this is directed to, so I will offer my $.02. I am not challenging anyone's experience or opinion. I came here to learn and I cannot do that without expressing my opinion and asking for clarification when something doesn't add up for me. Perhaps my mind will change on an issue, perhaps not, but either way, I will learn something.

Totally agree - even my doctor does not get a pass from me. I always want to know why and what the evidence is before I make up my mind. It's not personal, I don't doubt that MissJenniegirl is an excellent breeder with beautiful dogs who sincerely believes her advice based on her experience. Be it my doctor or an experienced breeder, it still has to add up for me to change my mind or act on advice - else we'd just be sheep eh?

 

[Tabitha]

Personally, I can't see any reason to doubt anything Connie has said. It just makes since to me. As for the the carrot and cheese comment I don't think it was meant as anything other than a metaphor. No, it doesn't make any since, but it dosn't have to. It just has to get a point across, it's not meant to be literal.