Calliesmom
Moderator
Teaching take and drop for energetic dog
- Thread starter Eleonora
- Start date
why this forum?
Lotta is not a sheltie and this is a sheltie forum.
I asked once from a moderator if we can write to this forum although Lotta is not a Sheltie. We were told that it's ok and it doesn't matter that Lotta is not a Sheltie.
Calliesmom
Moderator
yes- but why do you think a Cavalier would learn like a sheltie?
all the suggestions given to you that people here have used to train their shelties, you say won't work with Lotta, so why do you keep asking here?
we've told you what works with shelties................... we haven't trained any Cavaliers, at least no one has said that they have worked with one.
aren't there any Cavalier sites that you can ask?
I am confused.
What is the task to be learned? Take an object, hold in mouth, release it on command (like holding a basket for a photo)? Or take an object, play tug, and release on command (like play reward after flyball/agility)? Or get an object, bring it, and release it on command (like retrieve in obedience or get/bring in service work)?
I don't see how a clicker/treat would be useful teaching this because the mouth and excitement are engaged. Maybe the release portion you are trading a treat for a toy to teach let go. You could click then, but you would have to have three hands.
Don't you basically present the object and play is reward enough once grasped? Isn't it rather easy since we present things to their mouths and they take it all the time (like treats, HW med, toothbrush, etc.)? You just keep doing it and taking it back until they get it, right?
If the answer is THIS simple, did I miss the question?
Is your friend aware that dog's necks, if tugging, should be treated carefully and you only tug side to side and not up and down?
What is the task to be learned? Take an object, hold in mouth, release it on command (like holding a basket for a photo)? Or take an object, play tug, and release on command (like play reward after flyball/agility)? Or get an object, bring it, and release it on command (like retrieve in obedience or get/bring in service work)?
I don't see how a clicker/treat would be useful teaching this because the mouth and excitement are engaged. Maybe the release portion you are trading a treat for a toy to teach let go. You could click then, but you would have to have three hands.
Don't you basically present the object and play is reward enough once grasped? Isn't it rather easy since we present things to their mouths and they take it all the time (like treats, HW med, toothbrush, etc.)? You just keep doing it and taking it back until they get it, right?
If the answer is THIS simple, did I miss the question?
Is your friend aware that dog's necks, if tugging, should be treated carefully and you only tug side to side and not up and down?
Caro
Moderator
As I mentioned in the other thread, I think your friend is jumping too far ahead with her training. Leave, take and give are complex commands to teach and I teach the obedience retrieval in advanced classes. To me it is the handler's ability to learn how to teach that makes the difference.
Forget toys to start with and start by teaching "leave it" and "take" with treats. Put a treat in your hand and tell the dog to "leave it", then when you want her to take it say "take". You should make sure she understands these commands fully before moving on. When she is getting it by taking treats from your hand change the situation. Put the treats on the ground and do the exercise, put the treats in a bowl and do it. Don't point or indicate what you want (once you think she understands it) to make sure she is only responding with the verbal cue.
With verbal cues, initially you give the cue as she is doing the action - eg only say "take it" as she takes the treat so she understands that action she is doing means "take". As she learns the command you can start saying it before the action.
Start with this first - I have an appointment so will add the next steps later.
Forget toys to start with and start by teaching "leave it" and "take" with treats. Put a treat in your hand and tell the dog to "leave it", then when you want her to take it say "take". You should make sure she understands these commands fully before moving on. When she is getting it by taking treats from your hand change the situation. Put the treats on the ground and do the exercise, put the treats in a bowl and do it. Don't point or indicate what you want (once you think she understands it) to make sure she is only responding with the verbal cue.
With verbal cues, initially you give the cue as she is doing the action - eg only say "take it" as she takes the treat so she understands that action she is doing means "take". As she learns the command you can start saying it before the action.
Start with this first - I have an appointment so will add the next steps later.
This time we have time to write only one message and answer for only one message.
My friend doesn't understand everything about the message, but she can answer for one question:
Answer is: all of them, but to use first play as a reward with different kind of toys. People seems to be doing it also with very young puppies. This is what romeosangiovese suggested: ask with verbal cue Lotta to take a toy. After some time ask her to drop it and as a reward give it back to Lotta.
When we tried to ask about it, this is what she meant: Does it work also in this way/in this order?: Would my friend click when Lotta does those behavior and would she teach them before naming them? If you now understand what my friend meant.
See the messages 15 & 20 (page 2) for additional information and about "leave it".
My friend doesn't understand everything about the message, but she can answer for one question:
Answer is: all of them, but to use first play as a reward with different kind of toys. People seems to be doing it also with very young puppies. This is what romeosangiovese suggested: ask with verbal cue Lotta to take a toy. After some time ask her to drop it and as a reward give it back to Lotta.
When we tried to ask about it, this is what she meant: Does it work also in this way/in this order?: Would my friend click when Lotta does those behavior and would she teach them before naming them? If you now understand what my friend meant.
See the messages 15 & 20 (page 2) for additional information and about "leave it".
Caro
Moderator
You have to stop comparing yourself with other puppies. Honestly, the puppies are unlikely to understand the commands they are getting, they are just naturally pups that put things in their mouths.
Forget the toy - if they dog is not focusing when you have the toy then don't use it to train with.
As I stated - to start with you say the command at the same time the dog takes the item. When the dog understands the command you can start saying it before.
When you teach something you need to break it down into smaller bits.
It is difficult to type up all the parts of teaching the command. You are asking us to do a lot of work here so I need to know if what I gave you was helpful. People don't want to waste a lot of time typing up information that isn't going to be used.
I really think your friend would benefit more by seeing how this is done and learning how to train in a class and learning how to us a clicker properly.
Last time we were not at the computer when my friend told what to write. I send it later. We answered then to the message about what my friend would like to teach.
When my friend mentioned about puppies, she tried to answer also to that comment although we couldn't quote it:
We never told that wouldn't:
There are only three things that were suggested in this thread:
One of the things is to reward with another toy. It doesn't work with Lotta
In other words, my friend has not enough hands for it. However, in what romeosangiovese suggested, one uses only one toy. That is another thing that was suggested. It may work.
The third thing suggested is leave it/take it. The answer/the comment for it would have been too long for the previous message but here it comes:
We told earlier that elsewhere
After this she/he told:
However, we were told that:
So, that is the way how my friend is now adviced to teach leave it. However, we told earlier that this is how: "My friend was told to teach leave it so that the reward is given by hand to the dog. It's different than the one the dog leaves." *
As you can see, my friend has been given conflicting advice from different people/places.
This is the way Lotta is usually trained with:
The answer is: my friend is uncertain about what she would do in this whole leave it thing. So, the questions are now:
1) How does my friend teach leave it so that Lotta doesn't think that she doesn't have permission to take the treat (and eventually a toy)? About seeing how to train maybe there is a tutorial about this.
2) *Since my friend was told to teach leave it differently, should she teach "leave it" with two cues? If so, how does it work in practise?
OR
3) Can she teach leave it somehow with same cue? If so, how does Lotta know which behavior is expected from her?
Can someone answer to these questions? Note: although we mentioned about toys, we answered also to other comments.
When my friend mentioned about puppies, she tried to answer also to that comment although we couldn't quote it:
We never told that wouldn't:
There are only three things that were suggested in this thread:
One of the things is to reward with another toy. It doesn't work with Lotta
In other words, my friend has not enough hands for it. However, in what romeosangiovese suggested, one uses only one toy. That is another thing that was suggested. It may work.
The third thing suggested is leave it/take it. The answer/the comment for it would have been too long for the previous message but here it comes:
We told earlier that elsewhere
After this she/he told:
However, we were told that:
So, that is the way how my friend is now adviced to teach leave it. However, we told earlier that this is how: "My friend was told to teach leave it so that the reward is given by hand to the dog. It's different than the one the dog leaves." *
As you can see, my friend has been given conflicting advice from different people/places.
This is the way Lotta is usually trained with:
The answer is: my friend is uncertain about what she would do in this whole leave it thing. So, the questions are now:
1) How does my friend teach leave it so that Lotta doesn't think that she doesn't have permission to take the treat (and eventually a toy)? About seeing how to train maybe there is a tutorial about this.
2) *Since my friend was told to teach leave it differently, should she teach "leave it" with two cues? If so, how does it work in practise?
OR
3) Can she teach leave it somehow with same cue? If so, how does Lotta know which behavior is expected from her?
Can someone answer to these questions? Note: although we mentioned about toys, we answered also to other comments.
In the message we wrote in Mar 25, 2014 (in page 3), we answered to the message about leave it. We made new questions about it. Read the message. My friend could use leave it if someone could answer to them.
We will meanwhile answer to the following parts of the message. (We already answered to the first question):
Would/could you click here?:
This is what romeosangiovese suggested to do with a clicker:
In the following comment my friend is mostly comparing a click to the speach: I have told that my friend uses a clicker. She uses it because her dog sometimes moves so fast and she wouldn't otherwise have enough time to reward her dog when she does something right. Otherwise it is sometimes hard to reward her dog because she reacts differently to speach and a click.
This is not only about Lotta: Lotta often concentrates on something else (in this case on playing with a toy) and behaves sometimes like no one has said anything and like she wouldn't "hear" anything like those dogs in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9hy174JVro Lotta behaves often that way also in training.
In that case those cues are not going to mean anything to Lotta. Note: Lotta is not deaf although she behaves like she was.
Like we told, my friend could still use leave it if only...
We will meanwhile answer to the following parts of the message. (We already answered to the first question):
My friend knows about this but she didn't talk only about tugging.
Which one would you not use: a clicker or a treat? We have told that it didn't work so well with a treat, but one should use a clicker with Lotta.
Would/could you click here?:
Maybe.
This is what romeosangiovese suggested to do with a clicker:
In the following comment my friend is mostly comparing a click to the speach: I have told that my friend uses a clicker. She uses it because her dog sometimes moves so fast and she wouldn't otherwise have enough time to reward her dog when she does something right. Otherwise it is sometimes hard to reward her dog because she reacts differently to speach and a click.
This is not only about Lotta: Lotta often concentrates on something else (in this case on playing with a toy) and behaves sometimes like no one has said anything and like she wouldn't "hear" anything like those dogs in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9hy174JVro Lotta behaves often that way also in training.
In that case those cues are not going to mean anything to Lotta. Note: Lotta is not deaf although she behaves like she was.
Like we told, my friend could still use leave it if only...
Caro
Moderator
You are right, there are 2 methods of teaching 'leave it' with 2 slightly different meanings. The best way is to use 2 different words. For me I say 'wait' if I the dogs will get the treat as 'wait' means something else will happen. So if you are teaching 'leave it' means never touch use a different word to teach 'don't take' / 'take'.
If you want to make sure she gets the difference then offer the treat in a different way. After the first class my students train 'leave it' with the treat somewhere else - like on the ground or in a dog bowl (because most things we ask our dogs to leave are not in our hands). Then it frees up their hands to teach other things and the dog learns 'leave it' means leave all sorts of things. With 'don't take '/ 'take' start training with the treat from your hands, later you can teach 'take' to pick it up from the ground or toy box.