Too Excited to Work

[Justicemom]

I think we artificially create this kind of temperament by doing *everything* with them while they are puppies. Right? Everything is control, control, control while they are puppies. Crate games, puppy classes, etc. I think create dogs who don't know any different.

I had this epiphany this week when I took Jase to his first agility class, and the instructor (who I will never take another class from) described all the behaviors she expected of dogs his age. Releasing from a crate, releasing to food, tugging, tugging, more tugging, restrained recalls, stays, more tugging (WHY?), target to a hand, target to a thing on the ground… etc.

Jase can sit and sometimes stay.

Then she tells me to go ahead and bring him into class, because he needs to get used to the "stimulation". Ok. We walked in, and he was like "oh this could be fun," and that was the end of his stimulation. I told her if there weren't sheep, it wasn't really going to blow his mind.

Anyway, I think we don't let puppies be puppies and learn independent thinking, so we get these kinds of dogs until they settle down.

Not sure I agree with that. I have raise all mine basically the same. Justice and Ember did more as babies than any of my dogs. Those 2 especially Justice were the least simulated by training class. Justice was in Open comp class by 9 months. He was born settled down. I actually let my be puppies starting with Diva. They run off leash, explore fields and think for themselves on a daily basis.

I think the issue is we teach them from babies that they should be crazy and in high arousal and that is what we want and we don't balance it in the moment with relaxing and control. We don't realize when drive tips to pure arousal which is when learning stops. Instead of realizing it and teaching them how to come down from the arousal, we do something simple and quit and that leads to more frustration because that dog really wants to do this working thing. So we must work though it. I was guilty of this with Diva. This is what I did different from my first 2. How I worked though it was if she started barking, zooming around and generally not listening, I put her in a down and waited until she focused and relaxed. It was like her brain reset. Then we would go on. She learned if she got out of control fun stopped. She learned fun continued if she listened. Rewards came if she was in high drive and trying. She also learned that poor slow responses and effort, got no reward. Balance.

Birch and Celtic are much more naturally driven than Diva. I actually do not tug with Birch at agility to excite him anymore because he can tip too easily Before he runs he does a couple touches sits down, crosses on flat that is it. He needs no help getting excited and can easily become manic. I never reward when he is in that manic state. I do tug as a reward target with food and toys. Birch is fast and has run mid to high 5 yps with his slow handler, I have no doubt a faster handler could get more.

I think the key is knowing what your dog needs, balance and their temperament not when you start teaching them.

 

[corbinam]

I'll go with the in between response--I think it's a little of column A and a little of column B.

I spent a lot of time letting Enzo be a puppy. Of course he was expected to have some manners (sort of?) but we also spent a lot of time just playing and running. For me, it's about moderation. Teach some control, and teach some drive. Yes, we encouraged tugging and excited behavior, but not at the expense of control. Tugging and fetching (his two FAVORITE things) were always accompanied by waiting and relaxing and listening.

But from the very beginning, the relaxing part of that has been a challenge. Even as a puppy--constantly on the go. He listens--and will sit or down or wait or leave it. But he isn't turned "off". And to me, that isn't something that is easily taught. This dog has more arousal than any dog I've ever had--which is different from drive. Drive can lead to arousal, but it isn't always the same thing.

The arousal is what keeps him from focusing, not the drive. Like Shelli, I rarely use toys in training with Enzo. They put him into the arousal/over the top state that isn't conducive to learning.

The difficulty for me is that often times the actual effort itself (running a sequence, doing the dogwalk) is now causing that thoughtless arousal, and it's at that point that we ask for simple behaviors and then call it quits. I'm not sure at which point he understands why we're stopping, and at which point he's just so amped he doesn't care. (Not to mention that if this happens 5 minutes into training, we're out of luck--so how do we avoid it or work through it?)

 

[Justicemom]

I'll go with the in between response--I think it's a little of column A and a little of column B.

I spent a lot of time letting Enzo be a puppy. Of course he was expected to have some manners (sort of?) but we also spent a lot of time just playing and running. For me, it's about moderation. Teach some control, and teach some drive. Yes, we encouraged tugging and excited behavior, but not at the expense of control. Tugging and fetching (his two FAVORITE things) were always accompanied by waiting and relaxing and listening.

But from the very beginning, the relaxing part of that has been a challenge. Even as a puppy--constantly on the go. He listens--and will sit or down or wait or leave it. But he isn't turned "off". And to me, that isn't something that is easily taught. This dog has more arousal than any dog I've ever had--which is different from drive. Drive can lead to arousal, but it isn't always the same thing.

The arousal is what keeps him from focusing, not the drive. Like Shelli, I rarely use toys in training with Enzo. They put him into the arousal/over the top state that isn't conducive to learning.

The difficulty for me is that often times the actual effort itself (running a sequence, doing the dogwalk) is now causing that thoughtless arousal, and it's at that point that we ask for simple behaviors and then call it quits. I'm not sure at which point he understands why we're stopping, and at which point he's just so amped he doesn't care. (Not to mention that if this happens 5 minutes into training, we're out of luck--so how do we avoid it or work through it?)

Right over arousal is not drive.
This line needs very little to them to get them into over arousal. They want to do it so bad. Don't be afraid to tell him to knock it off and chill. It will not hurt their feelings. It does get better with age and practice. I took Birch is obedience class this last weds after time off and thought who the hell is this focused calm dog. Maturing works wonders. Plus hormones are surging as well for your guy. It's a hard time.

 

[2GoodDogs]

i am assisting in Control Unleashed class. These first three weeks sort of work on these very things. First part of class the dogs come in and lay on their "place" mat and are given TTouch massage until dogs relax and are 'under threshold'

Then the games are played, where the dogs learn an off and on signal, for attention and the default behavior is identified and rewarded...

It's all very interesting to me and rewards alot of attention. I am going to buy the book so I can be a better assistant.

I've used almost all of the games but for slightly different criteria with all my dogs, but this is a very useful class.

I will put Flyer in it next session, if I'm not assisting. (More than 5 class dogs, I'll be assisting)

 

[labgirl]

Cadbury was my nutcase on a lead at agility i found how calm I was affected him (calm Sophie = calm Cadbury). Age has improved him and also my learning a lot more about dogs, he has even managed to do an off lead Rally course which I never imagined possible before.

Now, Sparrow is a cocker, and boy can they get high at agility! Well I started foundation agility and one of the things that was the main part of the class was teaching the dog to go into their crate and settle when not working. I now find that though Sparrow loves agility, she does know when she is and is not working.

When we stand on the sidelines we do sits, downs, heelwork and stays, etc. when we go on the course I insist on a decent wait, again building up control. She really, really wants to run but she can't go until I say. When she does run we only do a short sequence once and then swop for someone else's turn, so she doesn't get overworked mentally.

I do think maturity plays a huge part too. Each dog matures at a different rate and I also think males can take longer than females.

So I wouldn't worry too much about having to keep things short for the moment. Better to train him to be controlled at agility than overaroused

 

[SheltieChe]

Search for Arousal curve or Yerkes Dodson law, universal for human or animals.
In childhood language it is Green ham and eggs training
“could you, would you in a box? Would you, could you with a fox? Would you eat them here or there? Could you eat them anywhere? ”
http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2009/10/head-games/
In dog training it is boring "proofing", there is difference between proficiency and fluency- proficient is high skill, fluent- able to perform anywhere under any circumstances.
What to do- as with any distraction training- distance, duration and intensity are your variables. Usually it all starts right in your living room before it manifests at agility ring.
Focus games, on and off switch games, different reinforcement etc all of it could affect level of arousal for the dog.
You are not alone- there are many many dogs that have very short "peak performance" curve. It is possible to build larger one and I know you are great trainer.

Best wishes.
P.S. I would ask for a simple behavior first, let say nose touch in front of the tunnel... if a dog can not do NT in front of the tunnel how about 2 ft from tunnel? no? 6 ft? It is a conversation and a game...

 

[Caro]

Right over arousal is not drive.

That's a really good statement. Don't know how often I see crazy barking BC with owners who 'don't want to quell the drive' when the darn dog is so aroused it can't concentrate, goes wildly around the course and doesn't really learn anything.

Something I learnt with Mr D - one training method does not fit all dogs. When we competed I had to get him controlled and focused before the start line or he just spins and barks - so we went through a series of obedience commands before a course or race. I know many people with Kelpies who do something similar - the dogs is always in a drop and wait at the start line. It was the easiest way for them to teach the dog self control before starting (and those dogs still did the drop through to AgCh). Eventually Deska settled down as he got older, but I never ever roused him before the start. Even at flyball it was a focused quiet release (Tully was completely different). At all activities (except flyball) I never, ever use treats. When food is around he loses focus, big time. So I throw out the rule book. Focus = learning so I remove all controllable stimuli. The reward is being able to go silly after a run or course.

Btw - went through all those control games books, didn't work. Had to find my own way.

 

[SheltieChe]

I'll go with the in between response--I think it's a little of column A and a little of column B.

I spent a lot of time letting Enzo be a puppy. Of course he was expected to have some manners (sort of?) but we also spent a lot of time just playing and running. For me, it's about moderation. Teach some control, and teach some drive. Yes, we encouraged tugging and excited behavior, but not at the expense of control. Tugging and fetching (his two FAVORITE things) were always accompanied by waiting and relaxing and listening.

But from the very beginning, the relaxing part of that has been a challenge. Even as a puppy--constantly on the go. He listens--and will sit or down or wait or leave it. But he isn't turned "off". And to me, that isn't something that is easily taught. This dog has more arousal than any dog I've ever had--which is different from drive. Drive can lead to arousal, but it isn't always the same thing.

The arousal is what keeps him from focusing, not the drive. Like Shelli, I rarely use toys in training with Enzo. They put him into the arousal/over the top state that isn't conducive to learning.

The difficulty for me is that often times the actual effort itself (running a sequence, doing the dogwalk) is now causing that thoughtless arousal, and it's at that point that we ask for simple behaviors and then call it quits. I'm not sure at which point he understands why we're stopping, and at which point he's just so amped he doesn't care. (Not to mention that if this happens 5 minutes into training, we're out of luck--so how do we avoid it or work through it?)

Arousal is big question on my mind, I spend most of my time trying to get into ring with right "head set". Very interesting to me that Justicemom and ClantyreSheltie show different ways they deal with dogs from their breeding lines.
I agree and disagree with Caro, tools are just that... tools, all those CU games, mat work, focus games, crate games- each human has to find what dog A needs are vs dog B and my choice is always by games and conversation with a dog. I almost do not do "run to the bowl" focus game with Che as he is opportunist and does not need opportunity to beat me and with Leo I have to do in on my knees to show earnest effort trying to " beat" him to the bowl
But I do not remove all controllable stimuli. Being able to stay at low end of top arousal is one thing to balance... being able to work thru arousal and still respond to me is different skill. It is easiest to introduce via mat work and crate games.
I have found a figure 8 obedience style is great calming factor on agility warm up
Thinking Clean Run is coming up with series on arousal and drives starting in April from Devon Dogs- Lauren Langman and Tom Mitchell. They have phenomenal dog training group.

 

[Noregrets]

My Breeze can be like this in agility and in class fast, barking dogs send him over the edge or not getting something right. He just turned two and just started trialing, because of life getting in the way. I have been very impressed so far with his concentration and attention at the trials. He exceeded my expectations for sure. He has gotten better with age, he was a crazy lunatic from about 11-15 months.

 

[Calliesmom]

My Breeze can be like this in agility and in class fast, barking dogs send him over the edge or not getting something right. He just turned two and just started trialing, because of life getting in the way. I have been very impressed so far with his concentration and attention at the trials. He exceeded my expectations for sure. He has gotten better with age, he was a crazy lunatic from about 11-15 months.

they both looked good on Saturday