MisfitBrian
Forums Enthusiast
Preferably in the groin region.
Training method that horrified me
- Thread starter KarenCurtis
- Start date
KarenCurtis
Forums Sage
Sandstorm and I are working on staying and coming when distracted. So far, so good. I have used a pine cone, (he loves them), had him in a stay, then I throw the pine cone while he stays. If he stays, his reward is the pinecone. If he chases, I can stop him by stepping on the leash. If he does not come, we go in, no play. We can start over after awhile. I always have him on a light weight leash, and he does stay. I would think a similar method could be used for a dog chasing ducks? We will graduate to him staying when my husband walks toward him- may take awhile- but the reward is success after you work so hard at training!Back in my early training days(before shelties) when I still used the old J and P methods with chain collars. One of my friends wanted to use an e collar to teach her dog to not chase the ducks at her Dad's farm. We were looking at the collar trying to figure out how it worked. I had the collar and I put it on my leg and my friend pushed the button. Nothing. I didn't feel it though my jeans. So my friend said maybe its not not up high enough. So she turned it up to 7 and pushed the button just as I touched it to my arm. I yelled dropped the collar.Damn that hurt! I made up my mind I would never use one on any dogs. I could never do that. My friend who is no longer a friend anymore BTW said "well she's got to learn not to chase the ducks" and used it anyway. Note she did not put it on her arm.
Now days I like the hands off approach to training as much as possible. I'm having alot of fun learning clicker training.
Karen
Karen
ClantyreSheltie
Forums Sage
We have to remember that we have herding dogs who are bred to work with people. Poodles are hunting dogs. They are stubborn, tend to not listen, and do whatever they want.
My landlord has a Standard Poodle, and she has used a shock collar on her. And yes, she tried it on herself first. Can I tell you the dog didn't give two hoots about that shock collar. Once, she turned her head around like "what?" and then continued what she was doing. It didn't last long.
Before we ever used that collar, I consulted my appliance fixing guy, who also breeds and trains German Short-Hair Pointers and he gave us specific directions, and told us which collar to buy. And those directions did not include giving the command and the shock at the same time.
This guy was obviously an idiot, but there are breeds that need corrections from 200 yards.
My landlord has a Standard Poodle, and she has used a shock collar on her. And yes, she tried it on herself first. Can I tell you the dog didn't give two hoots about that shock collar. Once, she turned her head around like "what?" and then continued what she was doing. It didn't last long.
Before we ever used that collar, I consulted my appliance fixing guy, who also breeds and trains German Short-Hair Pointers and he gave us specific directions, and told us which collar to buy. And those directions did not include giving the command and the shock at the same time.
This guy was obviously an idiot, but there are breeds that need corrections from 200 yards.
romeosangiovese
Forums Enthusiast
I always thought poodles were really intelligent, and that's why they are used the most in circuses. 
I'm hoping that ecollar was just on vibrate. If it's on zap mode, it's not a very smart way to train if you zap AND call at the same time. I don't like ecollars but I've seen it used very well in schutzhund training but that guy really knows what he's doing and he builds up to it so the dog actually understands why he's zapped, which is very different from the way it is commonly used - zap and let the dog figure out what the heck it was punished for!
I'm hoping that ecollar was just on vibrate. If it's on zap mode, it's not a very smart way to train if you zap AND call at the same time. I don't like ecollars but I've seen it used very well in schutzhund training but that guy really knows what he's doing and he builds up to it so the dog actually understands why he's zapped, which is very different from the way it is commonly used - zap and let the dog figure out what the heck it was punished for!
ClantyreSheltie
Forums Sage
They are really intelligent, that's the problem.
So one time, my landlord couldn't find her Poodle. She had brought the dogs in, and was sure Poodle was with them. She checked her floor, no Poodle. She checked outside, thinking the dog had gone over the fence, no Poodle. She called me, I hadn't seen her upstairs. Finally, she accidentally saw the Poodle under the steps in the stairwell. She told her "Chelsea, I can see you" and the dog BACKED UP farther under the steps. They are very intelligent.
The problem is that they don't really care if we are happy. Shelties are so easy to train because most of them want to make their humans happy. The Poodle has no such feelings. So she will come when called, if she wants. Once she figured out that Jacky couldn't make her do anything when she is across the yard, all bets were off. That's where the shock collar comes in. You give the command once (assuming the dog has been taught the command, and can hear it), then you nail the dog with the collar. You reward when they come. My appliance guy calls it "the hand of God". The dog should have no idea that it was you that hit that button.
It generally doesn't take more than once or twice for the dogs to learn. You certainly shouldn't have to use the collar all the time, only when the dog is out of reach (like 200 yards out on a hunt). And I can't see not trying to train the behavior without the collar first.
So one time, my landlord couldn't find her Poodle. She had brought the dogs in, and was sure Poodle was with them. She checked her floor, no Poodle. She checked outside, thinking the dog had gone over the fence, no Poodle. She called me, I hadn't seen her upstairs. Finally, she accidentally saw the Poodle under the steps in the stairwell. She told her "Chelsea, I can see you" and the dog BACKED UP farther under the steps. They are very intelligent.
The problem is that they don't really care if we are happy. Shelties are so easy to train because most of them want to make their humans happy. The Poodle has no such feelings. So she will come when called, if she wants. Once she figured out that Jacky couldn't make her do anything when she is across the yard, all bets were off. That's where the shock collar comes in. You give the command once (assuming the dog has been taught the command, and can hear it), then you nail the dog with the collar. You reward when they come. My appliance guy calls it "the hand of God". The dog should have no idea that it was you that hit that button.
It generally doesn't take more than once or twice for the dogs to learn. You certainly shouldn't have to use the collar all the time, only when the dog is out of reach (like 200 yards out on a hunt). And I can't see not trying to train the behavior without the collar first.
Justicemom
Forums Celebrity
I guess the 3 Std Poodles in Ember's Open and Utility classes are unusal as they seem to like working for their owners. My grandma raised mini poodles in the 70's all of them smart and willing little dogs except one. My aunt owned her. Man was she stubborn and self minded. Had you met met her you wouldn't have not thought to highly of poodles. Lived to be 19 years old, too stubborn to die.
labgirl
Forums Sage
I'm sorry Rachael, but I don't agree with you.
Cadbury is stubborn and wilful, he's a choc lab and that's their nature, he is also highly intelligent.
Yet without harsh methods I have worked on his recall, his stays, his obedience, everything. I call him in from outdoors and he comes first time. If I want him in the kitchen, I point, I say 'in'. He goes first time.
No e-collar has even come close to him.
And the hunting dogs do want to do things to please you. But you need to work with them and bond with them. When I get the clicker out you have never seen a dog so eager to do anything I want. And at agility I can see him working out what I want.
Poodles are not so different. They have the same gundog sense of humour
An e-collar is over-kill used by a poor or inexperienced handler.
Cadbury is stubborn and wilful, he's a choc lab and that's their nature, he is also highly intelligent.
Yet without harsh methods I have worked on his recall, his stays, his obedience, everything. I call him in from outdoors and he comes first time. If I want him in the kitchen, I point, I say 'in'. He goes first time.
No e-collar has even come close to him.
And the hunting dogs do want to do things to please you. But you need to work with them and bond with them. When I get the clicker out you have never seen a dog so eager to do anything I want. And at agility I can see him working out what I want.
Poodles are not so different. They have the same gundog sense of humour
An e-collar is over-kill used by a poor or inexperienced handler.
KarenCurtis
Forums Sage
I realize this, and we had a bark collar for our GSD- she could have cared less!!! Looking back, it is not what I should have done to curb the barking, but at the time we had our mentally disabled son living with us, and just did not spend the time needed training with our dog. She was a very tough dog- and protected our son wonderfully.
Karen
There's no magic and universal way to get an obedient dog. Every dog is different and every teaching experience is different.
If clicker training was the one and only method to train a dog, then this forum would not be necessary.
Who knows, maybe one day someone will find a better training method than clicker and people will say "clicker is such a cruel way to teach a dog, it makes them treat-oriented".
...Although I wouldn't be able to use a shock collar to train a dog, I believe that a tool, if used properly, will work.
Back to topic - I can only think that someone very frustrated and irresponsible would act that way.
If clicker training was the one and only method to train a dog, then this forum would not be necessary.
Who knows, maybe one day someone will find a better training method than clicker and people will say "clicker is such a cruel way to teach a dog, it makes them treat-oriented".
...Although I wouldn't be able to use a shock collar to train a dog, I believe that a tool, if used properly, will work.
Back to topic - I can only think that someone very frustrated and irresponsible would act that way.
Caro
Moderator
I just dont think using punishment techniques is an appropriate way to teach a normal 'come'. Even with a vibration it is a ridiculous way to teach come.
With not chasing wildlife. Well that is another thing altogether. My behaviourist said they are used extensively in Nordic countries to deter dogs from chasing wildlife. I know they are used by farmers and hunters for the same purpose. But we are talking about a deterrent - chase wildlife and be punished. I cant see how this would translate in a reliable come. All the dog would do is associate the owners come command with a punishment, and that just doesnt make sense.
With not chasing wildlife. Well that is another thing altogether. My behaviourist said they are used extensively in Nordic countries to deter dogs from chasing wildlife. I know they are used by farmers and hunters for the same purpose. But we are talking about a deterrent - chase wildlife and be punished. I cant see how this would translate in a reliable come. All the dog would do is associate the owners come command with a punishment, and that just doesnt make sense.