Training techniques: Caesar vs. the rest???

romeosangiovese said:
Very interesting responses! Really enjoying the lively debate.

Someone mentioned depriving the dog of attention and I remembered a discussion I had with a Finnish agility friend recently. She was telling me about this training thing they call "Ice Age" where you basically ignore the dog completely for 2 weeks (only interaction being feeding time, but after the dog sits, and only after you stroke the head as a "dominant gesture"). If the dog approaches you, you make a loud AHREEMMM sound like you're clearing your throat to get the dog away. After those 2 weeks, there is a process of reintegrating the dog into the pack, but only if it listens and is obedient and comes when called, if it doesn't but goes to another person instead, it is shooed as if it's not welcomed. This is repeated until the dog actually goes to the owner when called. My friend went through this process with 2 of her dogs, and she said she saw an effect on her dogs and they listened to her more (though it didn't last incredibly long).

After my discussion with my friend, I tried ignoring Romeo for a day or two (that's about as much as I can muster!) but instead of being more obedient, I think he was abit depressed.

I googled this Ice Age method and only found one English speaking website that talked about it, but not in positive terms. Has anyone heard of this, or something similar?
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I would call that emotional abuse. I can't see how ignoring a dog for a long period of time would be a good thing. As a matter of fact, I think that would be damaging to any one of my shelties.

SheltieChe said:
Am not sure if it was done properly but it calls abandonment treatment. If lets say you in the class with instructor who lets you do it, you are doing off leash work and walk with your dog, then you dogs goes to sniff- you leave out of sight and show up when your dog noticed you and actively looking for you. This is mild version, harsher one- when your dog lets say lunged at other dog at distance and you have a hook to tether his leash to it. You just leave and kind of saying to your dog- " If you behave this way I am out here"
it works for those situation when your dog says" oh mom but this boy is giving me an eye, I just have to respond! Nope you don't , I do not support your decision" my answer.
You have to know why are doing it and what situation. If the dog's reaction is sheer fear you will make it worse. If it territorial and dog does care whether you are there or not it will.
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This makes sense to me.

Toby for instance LOVES attention and affection above all things. If he's being bad (like refusing to come in the house and instead trying to make me chase him around). The best way to put an end to his behavior is to ignore him or even to go in the house and leave him by himself for 30-60 seconds.

In training classes with my trainer I've seen her have owners of pushy dogs tether them, walk away a few feet and ignore them till their behavior improves. I always find it interesting to watch.

To go to the extreme of ignoring a dog for days would lead to
insecurity and probably depression (in Toby's case and the case of my other shelties), definitely not something I'd want to create.
 
KarenCurtis said:
Yes, I want to hear about this too. I have never trained Sandstorm to NOT bark and follow the grocery delivery guy when he comes in my house. I don't know where to begin because of what you said above, Barb. The guy can't stand there and wait with heavy groceries outside my door while the dog is put in a calm, sit-stay. So I never trained for it.
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Victoria Stillwell has had an episode something like this- doubt it was grocery delivery though. anyway, you start with teaching the dog to go to mat or some other place away from the door. then as the dog gets good with that, you add knock or doorbell and send dog to mat. this will take a while- and you'll need a stay or wait on the mat.

you train for the situation before it happens- not while someone is on the other side of the door.

Really everyone should teach this but very few do. I have not because I don't have many visitors or reasons to do this- and if there is some reason that the door needs to be open - then they get crated.
 
Okay, so to lead off of this post, at least a few of us seem to know some unethical trainers (precise definitions may vary, but we all seem to be on the same general pathway). As previously discussed, many people go to these trainers or believe what's on these shows because they don't know better. So what is the best way to educate the public on positive training methods (preferably on a large scale)??? Shoving it down their throat clearly doesn't work. I think kikopup (on youtube) is doing a lot for positive training with her videos, but does anyone have any other ideas?
 
romeosangiovese said:
Someone mentioned depriving the dog of attention and I remembered a discussion I had with a Finnish agility friend recently. She was telling me about this training thing they call "Ice Age" where you basically ignore the dog completely for 2 weeks (only interaction being feeding time, but after the dog sits, and only after you stroke the head as a "dominant gesture").
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I have never heard it called Ice Age. But this is the method given to me by the first behaviourist I saw (no physical contact and only speak to give a command). It is a standard approach used by many of the old school dominance behaviourists. He suggested I use it on Tully - who was 5mths old and timid, albeit also a bit crazy (as we know some sheltie girls can be). It was dreadful, and yes abusive. I was not comfortable with the approach, it didn't seem right to me but then I was paying this guy a fortune to help. I ended up doing it for a week until the breeder objected and said it was very cruel to do to a pup and would be kinder just to roll up a paper and bop her on the nose! I can tell you it made Tully so much worse - she thought she was being rejected and it took a long time to build up her confidence and feel part of the family.

Now that said i am not against withdrawing some attention - but I think duration matters a lot. When Deska gets really bad I will withdraw attention for a day at the most, and it does help him settle down. But dogs have a morning 'reset' button and i think its cruel starting the day again with punishment for they don't know what. Mostly I will ignore them for up to 5mins for time out (although being shelties usually 5 secs is enough). I remember reading somewhere that this sort of approach builds up a kind of stockholm syndrome type dependency - a relationship yes but a dysfunctional one.
 
*Caro said:
I have never heard it called Ice Age. But this is the method given to me by the first behaviourist I saw (no physical contact and only speak to give a command). It is a standard approach used by many of the old school dominance behaviourists. He suggested I use it on Tully - who was 5mths old and timid, albeit also a bit crazy (as we know some sheltie girls can be). It was dreadful, and yes abusive. I was not comfortable with the approach, it didn't seem right to me but then I was paying this guy a fortune to help. I ended up doing it for a week until the breeder objected and said it was very cruel to do to a pup and would be kinder just to roll up a paper and bop her on the nose! I can tell you it made Tully so much worse - she thought she was being rejected and it took a long time to build up her confidence and feel part of the family.

Now that said i am not against withdrawing some attention - but I think duration matters a lot. When Deska gets really bad I will withdraw attention for a day at the most, and it does help him settle down. But dogs have a morning 'reset' button and i think its cruel starting the day again with punishment for they don't know what. Mostly I will ignore them for up to 5mins for time out (although being shelties usually 5 secs is enough). I remember reading somewhere that this sort of approach builds up a kind of stockholm syndrome type dependency - a relationship yes but a dysfunctional one.
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I can't imagine why someone will suggest weeks of ignoring the dogs. How they suppose to understand what you DO want from them? They don't understand time as it is abstract, past and future does not exist for them. That is sweetest part about dogs, they live in the moment- 5 minutes of timeout is an eternity for them. Usually 2 minutes is a max for dog to dissociate behaviors so they don't create patterns. My timeouts last long enough for me to come up with new idea how to proceed.
Controlling reinforcement is very valuable tool but not by weeks of ignoring the dog. Since I train my dogs that collar grab is good thing to happen at some point all I need is to hold the collar to prevent them from going to sniff or redirecting them if they too involved for the moment. Since they do not get upset for collar touch it is enough of timeout for them to reset the picture. And then again I will evaluate why did I have to use it- was I training too long, do I need more often breaks, did not have good level of arousal, my reinforcement rate low, etc.
Punishments, even mild ones should not be given lightly.
John Rogerson mentions that punishment/ correction is a bar of slippery soap that you are trying to reshape in the shower by standing with your foot on it- soap MIGHT reshape but more likely will shoot from under your foot in any direction...
 
Good Lord, why have a dog, then? For power? For control? Can you even imagine what an "ice age" would do to a Sheltie's psyche?
 
Training

Chris said:
Good Lord, why have a dog, then? For power? For control? Can you even imagine what an "ice age" would do to a Sheltie's psyche?
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Well said!!! Why have a dog!!! I just can't get over someone hitting their dog for peeing on the floor.Why the dog does not know why you hit it.:no:
 
Some fascinating posts here, how I wish we could all get together in person for a sheltie training camp, it would be fantastic...
 
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