Training techniques: Caesar vs. the rest???

[danisgoat]

Not defending CM or his techniques... I just wanted to point out that the BC is used because it's the neighbourhood dog that the husky has had problems with. CM didn't pick the breed to work with... it's a real life scenario that he's dealing with. Husky HATES neighbourhood BC... so CM is tackling the real life problem.

Exactly my point.

So you start with a dog that is NOT the trigger dog. Most trainers know to do this, and then you work up to the BC or the problem dog. You do not start with the BC so that you have an escalated situation.

Take any training. You don't just throw a dog on a teeter in agility. You work in baby steps to the teeter. You throw a dog on a teeter, they can get hurt, spooked forever, etc. and create a problem that will be much harder to "correct" than if you just took the time to train properly from the beginning.

This situation is no different.

Baby steps.....

 

[KarenCurtis]

So much about the approach used is wrong. It should be about setting the dog up for success, not walking the dog into a situation knowing it will react.

I agree with SheltieChe - what about establishing a critical distance, not walking the dogs head on (which is threatening), getting the dog's focus before it reacts, teaching an alternative behaviour, rewarding appropriate behaviour. The dog would do much better on a head collar (not a noose).

In addition the dog should be wearing a muzzle - this is a standard thing for training a dog aggressive dog near other dogs. That way the handler does not need to over-react if something happens.

As it was nothing was solved using that approach and the poor dog was handed in.

There are CM videos that look very troubling to me, and I am very conflicted, since I have seen so many of his positive shows. :sadsmile:

 

[BarbV]

Exactly my point.

So you start with a dog that is NOT the trigger dog. Most trainers know to do this, and then you work up to the BC or the problem dog. You do not start with the BC so that you have an escalated situation.

.....

Remember to take the video in context.....we have not seen the entire episode nor whatever pretraining he may or may not have done. Or this could have been CM "testing" the dog to see how hetruly reacts to the BC so he could measure the training required?????

Again, I'm not excusing anything here, just pointing out that selective video editing can tell a very different story than the reality.

Now as to alternatives: The U-turn has interesting possibilities, but strikes me that it "walks away from the problem"! i.e. avoids the issue. Wouldn't a sit or lie down be better? My inclination would be put myself in front of my aggressive dog, put him in a sit and treat/praise until the other dog walks past.

 

[take4roll10]

Now as to alternatives: The U-turn has interesting possibilities, but strikes me that it "walks away from the problem"! i.e. avoids the issue. Wouldn't a sit or lie down be better? My inclination would be put myself in front of my aggressive dog, put him in a sit and treat/praise until the other dog walks past.

Making a U-Turn is not walking away from the problem. The dog is clearly so close that he has reached his threshold. In that frame of mind, the husky will not respond to any commands and won't take treats.
The best thing to do is get the husky as close to the BC as possible, before he reaches his threshold and treat him there. If the owner encounters this BC all the time, then he should have an idea of how close he can get to the BC before his dog explodes.
As the husky becomes more and more comfortable, the owner can slowly decrease the distance between the dogs. If he sees signs that his dog is stressing, then he went too far and needs to increase the distance. It can take a really long time, but it's better than having a leash aggressive dog. The reason for the U-turn is to avoid the BC, so your dog doesn't explode and possibly ruin all the positive progress you made.

 

[Lahree]

Making a U-Turn is not walking away from the problem. The dog is clearly so close that he has reached his threshold. In that frame of mind, the husky will not respond to any commands and won't take treats.
The best thing to do is get the husky as close to the BC as possible, before he reaches his threshold and treat him there. If the owner encounters this BC all the time, then he should have an idea of how close he can get to the BC before his dog explodes.
As the husky becomes more and more comfortable, the owner can slowly decrease the distance between the dogs. If he sees signs that his dog is stressing, then he went too far and needs to increase the distance. It can take a really long time, but it's better than having a leash aggressive dog. The reason for the U-turn is to avoid the BC, so your dog doesn't explode and possibly ruin all the positive progress you made.

LOL! You took the post right out of my head! Get out of there! LOL!

 

[danisgoat]

Remember to take the video in context.....we have not seen the entire episode nor whatever pretraining he may or may not have done. Or this could have been CM "testing" the dog to see how hetruly reacts to the BC so he could measure the training required?????

Again, I'm not excusing anything here, just pointing out that selective video editing can tell a very different story than the reality.

I took the video in context. I don't care how much editing was involved in the video, what was done there was abuse. There could be a ton of footage before and after. The part I saw was cruel. And it got CM himself hurt in the process. No excuses for that.

Making a U-Turn is not walking away from the problem. The dog is clearly so close that he has reached his threshold. In that frame of mind, the husky will not respond to any commands and won't take treats.
The best thing to do is get the husky as close to the BC as possible, before he reaches his threshold and treat him there. If the owner encounters this BC all the time, then he should have an idea of how close he can get to the BC before his dog explodes.
As the husky becomes more and more comfortable, the owner can slowly decrease the distance between the dogs. If he sees signs that his dog is stressing, then he went too far and needs to increase the distance. It can take a really long time, but it's better than having a leash aggressive dog. The reason for the U-turn is to avoid the BC, so your dog doesn't explode and possibly ruin all the positive progress you made.

Well said, Randi

 

[SheltieChe]

I think we should suggest for Mr Millan to switch his tough act of training to marine mammal training... you know what happens when you try to "gently kick" killer whale?

 

[Mikos_Mom]

I think we should suggest for Mr Millan to switch his tough act of training to marine mammal training... you know what happens when you try to "gently kick" killer whale?

LMAO!!!!

I have to admit that I have been a long time Cesar fan until just yesterday. Those "touches" (kicks) happen so quickly on the episodes I've seen... I could barely even see it happen, let alone figure out whether it was a kick or touch. Actually, it never occurred to me that it was a kick... I really believed he was just touching the dogs with the side of his foot to distract them. Right or wrong... useful or useless training method... I had NO IDEA that he was actually kicking the dogs.

I still maintain that part of his message is a good one... be calm and treat your dog like a dog... respect their species and don't humanize them or create some sort of sad back-story that has you baby-ing them to the point of creating a monster.

The kicking and strangulation part... well that's going to take a while to soak in. I'd never seen the husky episode ... and to be honest, I paid more attention to the books than the tv show. (he doesn't advocate kicking in his books, btw!) I'm actually a little sad that this person I trusted for advice and information may not actually know what he's talking about when it comes to the actual training.

I'm very glad that Miko has been such an easy going guy since day 1 that there was never really any need for me to use any extreme training techniques with him. He's very food motivated, eager to please and doesn't have a dominant bone in his body.

 

[KarenCurtis]

LMAO!!!!

I still maintain that part of his message is a good one... be calm and treat your dog like a dog... respect their species and don't humanize them or create some sort of sad back-story that has you baby-ing them to the point of creating a monster.

The kicking and strangulation part... well that's going to take a while to soak in. I'd never seen the husky episode ... and to be honest, I paid more attention to the books than the tv show. (he doesn't advocate kicking in his books, btw!) I'm actually a little sad that this person I trusted for advice and information may not actually know what he's talking about when it comes to the actual training.

I like your post- I feel the same way. Part of the message is good, most of his shows I have seen are very positive. He was the one who taught me how to walk Sandstorm successfully on busy roads. (I learn better by watching, instead of written descriptions).
But it does make me sad when I see the negative videos. I really think he needs to change his show, he may have to.

 

[romeosangiovese]

I saw him use treats in his latest season (also a weird collar that he came up with to keep the choke up the neck behind the ears). I thought that was a good sign. Maybe even a small concession on his part that he knew there are other effective methods out there?