What method do you like best for teaching weaves?
- Thread starter Sharon
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k9kreationz
Forums Celebrity
Koji is special
Koji is a basket case. Oh wait, no, that'd be me. LOL.
On the upside, it taught me to have an open mind regarding training techniques.
SheltieChe
Forums Sage
mmm, here is the best article I know on hierarchy of prompts. And one really need to reed into it as it is deep
http://susangarrett.wordpress.com/2009/03/10/bob-baileys-reply/
I will emphasize Bob's Bailey statements
" When I wanted behavior I targeted, lured, modified the environment, essentially anything to get the behavior going. BUT, and this is important, I never did any more prompting than necessary to get the behavior. I never lured if I could target. I never targeted if I could modify the environment. I never modified the environment if the animal simply offered the behavior, or something close to it. If I used a prompt, I got rid of the prompt ASAP. If I could start the animal working with one prompt, that’s all I used. If I was still prompting responses the same way 10 reinforcements later I would go the wall and bang my head very hard three times!"
"So, how did I train? I usually let the animal tell me what behaviors it had. I then (prompted)(shaped) as needed to get the behavior as quickly as possible. To change an animal’s behavior quickly you should change your behavior ASAP. Doing more of the wrong thing does not make it right."
As for Koji being special...mmm, here is the story. My friend has retired brood bitch who seems to like to have a job so they are doing agility. Now this girl is iffy on the weaves. I wanted to teach her 2x2 but... the girl is not operant, she does not offer behaviors. Can I teach this dog shaping? Easily. Can I teach my friend to use shaping?
As Bob Bailey says "Two factors here- how good is the trainer and how good is the dog. I have a little saying; “training the animal is the easy part.”
http://susangarrett.wordpress.com/2009/03/10/bob-baileys-reply/
I will emphasize Bob's Bailey statements
" When I wanted behavior I targeted, lured, modified the environment, essentially anything to get the behavior going. BUT, and this is important, I never did any more prompting than necessary to get the behavior. I never lured if I could target. I never targeted if I could modify the environment. I never modified the environment if the animal simply offered the behavior, or something close to it. If I used a prompt, I got rid of the prompt ASAP. If I could start the animal working with one prompt, that’s all I used. If I was still prompting responses the same way 10 reinforcements later I would go the wall and bang my head very hard three times!"
"So, how did I train? I usually let the animal tell me what behaviors it had. I then (prompted)(shaped) as needed to get the behavior as quickly as possible. To change an animal’s behavior quickly you should change your behavior ASAP. Doing more of the wrong thing does not make it right."
As for Koji being special...mmm, here is the story. My friend has retired brood bitch who seems to like to have a job so they are doing agility. Now this girl is iffy on the weaves. I wanted to teach her 2x2 but... the girl is not operant, she does not offer behaviors. Can I teach this dog shaping? Easily. Can I teach my friend to use shaping?
As Bob Bailey says "Two factors here- how good is the trainer and how good is the dog. I have a little saying; “training the animal is the easy part.”SheltieChe, you'll have to excuse me if I read this wrong, but being open-minded and willing to use a variety of training techniques doesn't mean that k9kreationz is a weak trainer. In fact, her flexibility and willingness to find an approach which suits the dog's temperament, instead of expecting the dog to change his/her temperament to suit K9kreationz training methods demonstrates a level of flexibility I wish more trainers had. While shaping is a wonderful technique, there are many other techniques that work just as well, and it's important to be able to apply a wide variety of strategies depending on the situation, the dog, and the trainer. All of the people you regularly quote started out the same as you, I, and k9kreationz at one point - no trainer has all of the answers, and motivational quotes can't replace actual training experience and feedback. We each have a slightly different method of training our dogs, and I consider every method which respects the dog as a viable one. Offering suggestions based on personal experience is wonderful, but using quotes to imply k9kreationz isn't a good enough trainer to use shaping isn't fair.
Justicemom
Forums Celebrity
I took that same way, sorry if it wasn't how it was intented SheltieChe but I thought Cheryl post was very well written and expressed her point of view very well.
Thank you for your Tara post you said it more eloquently than I.
SheltieChe
Forums Sage
I apologize if my writing is not clear as I want it to be.
By no means I mean offense to anybody or even thought that someone is a weak trainer.... life is not competition, my dogs are not better than others, who knows/ cares who made more mistakes in their training...
it is all about journey and it is different for each of us. It is my philosophy that my dogs are reflection of my training just as any of yours are reflection of your training. Again, no competition meant, just is.
My answer goes to the description of method using x pens and wires for weave training and why I think it is a bit redundant and why I know I do not need to use it. Do I have my hierarchy of methods I use? Absolutely and it is pretty similar to what Bob teaches.
Here is my understanding of using xpens/crates/wires for weave training methodology. One creates kind of a chute by making one choice easy and obvious and eliminating/making difficult other choices. It calls response cost. Response cost means how much this behavior cost to animal. Lets say I am on a diet and there is ice cream in the fridge. It is pretty easy for me to cheat on the diet and get that ice cream. Now lets say I want that ice cream but I need to get dressed and drive 5 miles to the store to get it. It is possible that I am much less likely to cheat on my diet because response cost of getting it high.
Same goes with wiring/blocking etc. Yes, dog can jump over it or even trash entire contraption but response cost of such behavior is much higher than easier way of just running through the chute and getting reward in the end. Yes, this methodology works. Would I use it? Not as my first choice. But lets say I accidentally rewarded touch when dog was using both nose and paw at same time and now my dog is confused and keeps offering both. In this case, yes, I can choose putting dog lets say inside of the box and ask for nose touch knowing that lifting his paw now is far more costly behavior than nose touch I want. I would use it once or twice just enough to get us back on a track. Or I can use target and lift target higher again increasing response cost for the leg.
So if I see someone using contraption of barries/xpens/gates etc for teaching wires my thought will be to find out if the trainer is desperate and can not get this behavior by other means or it is a person who learned his trade 30 years ago and I should just keep walking
By no means I mean offense to anybody or even thought that someone is a weak trainer.... life is not competition, my dogs are not better than others, who knows/ cares who made more mistakes in their training...
it is all about journey and it is different for each of us. It is my philosophy that my dogs are reflection of my training just as any of yours are reflection of your training. Again, no competition meant, just is.
My answer goes to the description of method using x pens and wires for weave training and why I think it is a bit redundant and why I know I do not need to use it. Do I have my hierarchy of methods I use? Absolutely and it is pretty similar to what Bob teaches.
Here is my understanding of using xpens/crates/wires for weave training methodology. One creates kind of a chute by making one choice easy and obvious and eliminating/making difficult other choices. It calls response cost. Response cost means how much this behavior cost to animal. Lets say I am on a diet and there is ice cream in the fridge. It is pretty easy for me to cheat on the diet and get that ice cream. Now lets say I want that ice cream but I need to get dressed and drive 5 miles to the store to get it. It is possible that I am much less likely to cheat on my diet because response cost of getting it high.
Same goes with wiring/blocking etc. Yes, dog can jump over it or even trash entire contraption but response cost of such behavior is much higher than easier way of just running through the chute and getting reward in the end. Yes, this methodology works. Would I use it? Not as my first choice. But lets say I accidentally rewarded touch when dog was using both nose and paw at same time and now my dog is confused and keeps offering both. In this case, yes, I can choose putting dog lets say inside of the box and ask for nose touch knowing that lifting his paw now is far more costly behavior than nose touch I want. I would use it once or twice just enough to get us back on a track. Or I can use target and lift target higher again increasing response cost for the leg.
So if I see someone using contraption of barries/xpens/gates etc for teaching wires my thought will be to find out if the trainer is desperate and can not get this behavior by other means or it is a person who learned his trade 30 years ago and I should just keep walking
Toffee's Mom
Forums Sage
.......
So if I see someone using contraption of barries/xpens/gates etc for teaching wires my thought will be to find out if the trainer is desperate and can not get this behavior by other means or it is a person who learned his trade 30 years ago and I should just keep walking
I am a big fan of shaping and 2x2's but I wouldn't go as far as what you are implying
HopeShelties
Forums Enthusiast
It doesn't make a trainer 'desperate' by using methods other than 2x2. Each trainer is different and different methods work for different people and dogs.
I have tried probably every method now... baskets, wires, channels, wams, 2x2s, and accordion weaves. I would use most methods, depending on the dog. Some dogs do better with one method or another, based on their individual temperament and drive, and how they learn best.
It also depends on the type of trainer you as a person are... and I don't mean good trainer or bad trainer. I mean that we all have different ways of being successful.
I think it is wrong to say there is only one great way to achieve the results, and that any other method is not as good because you believe yours is above all the best because it falls within the way you wish to train.
Dogs who are never shaped don't know that they are missing anything. There are plenty of phenomenal dogs trained with positive trainers who don't shape, or use the 2x2 method.
Having tried all methods, 2x2 is my least favorite, It doesn't make it a bad method. Just not my preferred method. I prefer the WAMs and channels, or accordions if I had been able to get a set. I tend to fall in line with Silivia Trkmans thinking... build in the speed from the get go. It isn't for lack of being able to shape. I trained a beautiful dumbbell retrieve with Athena using shaping, and am working on it with another dog as well. It is my preferred method when it comes to that particular exercise... I also utilize it a lot in obedience training. It just isn't my favorite method when it comes to weaves.
I have tried probably every method now... baskets, wires, channels, wams, 2x2s, and accordion weaves. I would use most methods, depending on the dog. Some dogs do better with one method or another, based on their individual temperament and drive, and how they learn best.
It also depends on the type of trainer you as a person are... and I don't mean good trainer or bad trainer. I mean that we all have different ways of being successful.
I think it is wrong to say there is only one great way to achieve the results, and that any other method is not as good because you believe yours is above all the best because it falls within the way you wish to train.
Dogs who are never shaped don't know that they are missing anything. There are plenty of phenomenal dogs trained with positive trainers who don't shape, or use the 2x2 method.
Having tried all methods, 2x2 is my least favorite, It doesn't make it a bad method. Just not my preferred method. I prefer the WAMs and channels, or accordions if I had been able to get a set. I tend to fall in line with Silivia Trkmans thinking... build in the speed from the get go. It isn't for lack of being able to shape. I trained a beautiful dumbbell retrieve with Athena using shaping, and am working on it with another dog as well. It is my preferred method when it comes to that particular exercise... I also utilize it a lot in obedience training. It just isn't my favorite method when it comes to weaves.