What's with Carrying Dogs Off Courses???

[helps]

Nope all dogs!!Like I said we are all gonna agree to disagree.Maybe the training or handling just saying.I am not saying anymore on the subject.

I have to agree with you. Not judging anyone, but from my experience if dog doesn't run like in the training, it's usually handler's error. I know from my own experience with contacts that my dog was blowing them off, because I was acting weird, nervous, not giving clear cues.... Today he will always stop, because I'm way calmer and I do the same routine like if we were training. People often don't realize that, but I was lucky to have people watch me and tell me the difference.

Of course, dog knows that he's trialing, but it's only up to handler to show the dog what he's supposed to do.
I would say that only exception would be running with fearful or very distracted dog, competitions could be more challenging and handler wouldn't be fully responsible for dog's behavior.

 

[corbinam]

While I don't disagree with anyone specifically who has posted (great points made by all) I will say that I believe that many dogs are truly ring-wise dogs. They know the difference and the limitations of being in a trial versus being in practice.

You can teach and train and teach and train and practice and proof but you are limited in what you can do in a trial. You can't feed. You can praise--but not all dogs respond to that. You can't have them fix something (get back on a contact, for example) or even really correct them and show them the right behavior other than a marker. Yes, for sensitive dogs a marker is more than enough.

But what to do for dogs like Lexi and Trax who prefer agility to ANY reward? For example, a year or more ago when I was trying to get Lexi to speed up her 2o2o I used double target plates. I put food on the first target plate, then raced her to the second once I released her. She soon learned that she got to keep running and wouldn't even eat the treat on the first target plate because she wanted to keep going more than she wanted a treat (regardless of what it was, and she is a food hound!)

Now no, I would never pull my dogs off for a handling mistake. I suppose you could say there is a grey area for this, but you know your dog. I wouldn't pull my dog for a wide turn because it's my fault. I wouldn't pull my dog for taking the wrong end of a tunnel because it's my fault. But if my dog doesn't break a start line stay when I'm practicing with trains going by, dogs eating behind her, barking, screaming, running, when I leave the building, but does when I'm at a trial, I don't know how else you fix it other than not allowing them to self reward.

(Caveat--I have never experienced any of the above, but I can imagine it's something I would do if I had to).

 

[HopeShelties]

Kai is another of those dogs. Those who know her well know she is not the average soft sheltie, and the agility IS the biggest reward. She has so much love for the game. I don't know what else I was supposed to do. Continue to allow the issue to go on? Allowing her a second try is what caused the problem. Going on once she got into acting wild created craziness.
Now, I wouldn't have dared do it with Athena, Aurora, Ember, or Caleb. They are all hyper sensitive to mistakes, and you don't let them know one has been made. It's why I have the drive and speed that I do from them.
I agree though Ashley. There are ringwise dogs. My friend's BC is one. The best trainers in the area have been unable to come up with anything to help the dog with the weave poles. My friend won't pull her, but the dog is very ringwise. She knows there is no tennis ball. She knows she can't be made to weave right in a trial. She acts out. It only has gotten worse over the years, and she has now retired the dog because it is so bad.

 

[helps]

While I don't disagree with anyone specifically who has posted (great points made by all) I will say that I believe that many dogs are truly ring-wise dogs. They know the difference and the limitations of being in a trial versus being in practice.

You can teach and train and teach and train and practice and proof but you are limited in what you can do in a trial. You can't feed. You can praise--but not all dogs respond to that. You can't have them fix something (get back on a contact, for example) or even really correct them and show them the right behavior other than a marker. Yes, for sensitive dogs a marker is more than enough.

But what to do for dogs like Lexi and Trax who prefer agility to ANY reward? For example, a year or more ago when I was trying to get Lexi to speed up her 2o2o I used double target plates. I put food on the first target plate, then raced her to the second once I released her. She soon learned that she got to keep running and wouldn't even eat the treat on the first target plate because she wanted to keep going more than she wanted a treat (regardless of what it was, and she is a food hound!)

Now no, I would never pull my dogs off for a handling mistake. I suppose you could say there is a grey area for this, but you know your dog. I wouldn't pull my dog for a wide turn because it's my fault. I wouldn't pull my dog for taking the wrong end of a tunnel because it's my fault. But if my dog doesn't break a start line stay when I'm practicing with trains going by, dogs eating behind her, barking, screaming, running, when I leave the building, but does when I'm at a trial, I don't know how else you fix it other than not allowing them to self reward.

But how much different are trials and practice? Aren't we the ones making and deciding these limitations and differences?
Though, is that really true that you can't fix contacts or something?? It's pretty common over here that if your dog skips the contact you can take him back and make it right....of course,it means disqualification, but it's worth it. Or if he makes mistake in weaves, you can fix that, too. The main difference is that you cannot give your dog treats or toys, but I believe that consistency is a key,especially with contacts.

 

[HopeShelties]

The problem in my situation was the going back and fixing it. It is why she was not collecting. She is very fast and high drive. Why bother making the effort to collect when she could just blow past them and have me bring her back. That is what she seemed to think the behavior was at that point.
Trials are different. More noise, more dogs, a higher energy atmosphere. Like over the weekend we were in Cleveland. It was probably the wildest dog show I've attended. They had the conformation, agility, rally, and obedience all in the same area together. There were loudspeakers, blowers, a lot of public complete with lots of talking and clapping, barking, blow dryers, etc going on. A dog is going to pick up the difference between home and that kind of environment.
As far as contacts here, we have the 4 paw safety rule (if it were up to me, we wouldn't. I personally think it is better for a dog to get back on when they come off of something than to just go on. stupid rule.) and if your dog gets back on a contact obstacle when it is the right obstacle in the course you get whistled off for getting back on the contact.
Here's the 4 paw rule: "a dog may not reattempt a contact obstacle after a refusal where the dog had been on that obstacle with all four paws"

 

[corbinam]

But how much different are trials and practice? Aren't we the ones making and deciding these limitations and differences?

True--you can simulate a trial in many different ways. But I think we're discrediting our dogs if we think they don't know the difference. There's no way to simulate the noise, the amount of people, the amount of dogs, etc... Even if I keep my emotions in check, there are a lot of nerves (people and dogs!) everywhere you turn. There is only so much of the environment that you can control. Of course you hope that your training is enough (practicing in a public park, going to run-throughs or show & gos, working under distraction, etc...) but some dogs just know the difference no matter what we do (my dogs are not like this--I'm sort of playing devil's advocate).

Though, is that really true that you can't fix contacts or something?? It's pretty common over here that if your dog skips the contact you can take him back and make it right....of course,it means disqualification, but it's worth it. Or if he makes mistake in weaves, you can fix that, too. The main difference is that you cannot give your dog treats or toys, but I believe that consistency is a key,especially with contacts.

My husband was once chastised when our dog accidentally got back on the contact. It was clear that it wasn't intentional, but he marked her mistake and she hopped back into her 2o2o. He was whistled off course and the judge chastised him for it. I think the rule may have changed now--or maybe judges are just being a bit more lenient but I think it's still considered training in the ring which isn't allowed (or is at least discouraged).

 

[helps]

True--you can simulate a trial in many different ways. But I think we're discrediting our dogs if we think they don't know the difference. There's no way to simulate the noise, the amount of people, the amount of dogs, etc... Even if I keep my emotions in check, there are a lot of nerves (people and dogs!) everywhere you turn. There is only so much of the environment that you can control. Of course you hope that your training is enough (practicing in a public park, going to run-throughs or show & gos, working under distraction, etc...) but some dogs just know the difference no matter what we do (my dogs are not like this--I'm sort of playing devil's advocate).


My husband was once chastised when our dog accidentally got back on the contact. It was clear that it wasn't intentional, but he marked her mistake and she hopped back into her 2o2o. He was whistled off course and the judge chastised him for it. I think the rule may have changed now--or maybe judges are just being a bit more lenient but I think it's still considered training in the ring which isn't allowed (or is at least discouraged).

Oh that's not what I was implying, I'm sorry. I'm sure dogs know very well the difference. There's a lot of things that differ during the trials. I was talking more about consistency and criteria at trials, because if you for example let your contacts slip once, it'll probably happen again. On the other side, the rule you mention sounds really harsh. We most definitely can take dog back on the obstacle. It's always your choice. You can let it slip, keep running and finish with one fault or go back, fix the contact and you'd be disqualified. But luckily judges won't whistle you off. A lot of people actually go back and run whole DW (or see saw) again to fix the contact. I guess, it's a lot harder to teach the dog he needs to be consistent if you can't go back and fix the contacts.

just an example, at around 1:01 my friend takes her collie back to fix the contact
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiMzIfgqyOQ

 

[Sharon]

Walking Dogs off course

Oh that's not what I was implying, I'm sorry. I'm sure dogs know very well the difference. There's a lot of things that differ during the trials. I was talking more about consistency and criteria at trials, because if you for example let your contacts slip once, it'll probably happen again. On the other side, the rule you mention sounds really harsh. We most definitely can take dog back on the obstacle. It's always your choice. You can let it slip, keep running and finish with one fault or go back, fix the contact and you'd be disqualified. But luckily judges won't whistle you off. A lot of people actually go back and run whole DW (or see saw) again to fix the contact. I guess, it's a lot harder to teach the dog he needs to be consistent if you can't go back and fix the contacts.

just an example, at around 1:01 my friend takes her collie back to fix the contact
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiMzIfgqyOQ

Wow is that a smooth coated collie or a BC?Nice dog. I wish the venues here would let you go back and fix the contact but they don't.

 

[ortegah]

Oh that's not what I was implying, I'm sorry. I'm sure dogs know very well the difference. There's a lot of things that differ during the trials. I was talking more about consistency and criteria at trials, because if you for example let your contacts slip once, it'll probably happen again. On the other side, the rule you mention sounds really harsh. We most definitely can take dog back on the obstacle. It's always your choice. You can let it slip, keep running and finish with one fault or go back, fix the contact and you'd be disqualified. But luckily judges won't whistle you off. A lot of people actually go back and run whole DW (or see saw) again to fix the contact. I guess, it's a lot harder to teach the dog he needs to be consistent if you can't go back and fix the contacts.

just an example, at around 1:01 my friend takes her collie back to fix the contact
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiMzIfgqyOQ

Yeah no, it doesn't work that way for us. If your dog goes back on the contact, they blow a whistle and you're expected to leave the course immediately, which is essentially the same as pulling a dog off a course

 

[Sharon]

Walking dogs off course

Yeah no, it doesn't work that way for us. If your dog goes back on the contact, they blow a whistle and you're expected to leave the course immediately, which is essentially the same as pulling a dog off a course

I wish AKC would allow you to put the dog back on the equipment.It is an NQ anyways so why not let us fix it.I know it is called "training in the ring"'Heck they let mixed breeds in the Invitational so why not let us fix the contact.JMO