why are dog shows a competition?

[JessicaR]

First of all I just want to say I am in no way against conformation shows, and I am not trying to start any arguments.
I understand lots of people enjoy them. Heck I love to watch them I just don't enjoy being in the ring. I guess I just wish there was less primping and more of a natural look to the dogs that show, and less politics involved. Which is why if I ever decide to show again it will be with UKC.

I also enjoy reading what everyone is posting and seeing the different opinions!

Like my OP said this conversation started because a kennel doesn't show in conformation but does show in schutzhund and sells working dogs, and show breeders are upset and bad mouthing this kennel. Now you cant tell me that even though these people don't step in the ring that their dogs are not of good breeding quality. Because the GSD's don't walk on their hocks or have a back that looks like a banana they cant be a good dog
I don't think people would be paying upward of $50,000 for unsound dog!

Another quick question We all know double coated breeds blow coat and that bitches blow coat even more than males. So why cant people/judges look past this? I understand a sheltie in its full coat is a beautiful sight, but blowing coat is natural and shouldn't be penalized in the ring. It would make showing those pesky females so much easier. Of course I am not talking about taking a dog in the ring with clumps of fur hanging out or anything. When I was showing it was just such a pain in the butt to try to schedule showing around when Belle was going to be in full coat, or to plan on going to a show only to have her start blowing coat. It would just be one less thing to have to worry about.

 

[tofu pup]

Another quick question We all know double coated breeds blow coat and that bitches blow coat even more than males. So why cant people/judges look past this?

...they do. Or at least, they should. A quality dog is a quality* dog, in-coat or out of it. A good judge, well-versed in the breed, should be able to find that quality.

Now, if the dog looks like a stick-figure with moth-patches falling out, or if she has that "My babies are 16 weeks old now!" nakedness, do yourself and the dog a favor and wait for the nice, new coat to come in.

But a bitch with a fitted coat of healthy, just-coming-in hair? Or a dog who looks less hairy in August than in January? A good judge will find a good dog.

* Be honest with yourself, now! Don't tell me your pet-quality dog was "robbed" because the judge was only putting up dogs with tons of coat.

 

[Justicemom]

...they do. Or at least, they should. A quality dog is a quality* dog, in-coat or out of it. A good judge, well-versed in the breed, should be able to find that quality.

Now, if the dog looks like a stick-figure with moth-patches falling out, or if she has that "My babies are 16 weeks old now!" nakedness, do yourself and the dog a favor and wait for the nice, new coat to come in.

But a bitch with a fitted coat of healthy, just-coming-in hair? Or a dog who looks less hairy in August than in January? A good judge will find a good dog.

* Be honest with yourself, now! Don't tell me your pet-quality dog was "robbed" because the judge was only putting up dogs with tons of coat.

Grizz finished his Championship with a major in August when he was out of coat. He actually has a better outline when he is a bit naked.

 

[tofu pup]

Why do that to yourself? Why not go for performance titles, things you can mostly control with training and skill, things that are a lot LESS subjective (though there are some subjectivities for sure).

Because I love showing in conformation. I love grooming my dogs and showing them at their very best. I love asking my dog to look cute for cookies (and I love telling my dog he's awesome, even if he didn't win). I love seeing the "really good ones" - the Shelties that fit the standard so well. I love learning about dogs from the people who have been in the breed for decades.

And I'm pretty good at it, if I can say that. There's always something to learn, but I've been showing dogs since I was 10 (and been around show dogs even longer), and I'm pretty good at it. Yes, there's skill, knowledge, and learning involved.

No, it's not the be-all, end-all. And it's OK if you don't want to do it. But I enjoy it, and a lot of other people and their dogs do, too.

As an aside... there's a thing about subjectivity. When you really start to understand the standard, and when you've been looking at dogs for long enough, you learn to find the good ones. You realize that the judge isn't just pointing to the fluffiest dogs, or the dogs handled by his friends, or at dogs at random. You see the rhyme and reason, and you're able to find the quality dogs, too. Yes, there's interpretation and subjectivity, but there's a standard of quality at work as well.

 

[Lightplum]

As an aside... there's a thing about subjectivity. When you really start to understand the standard, and when you've been looking at dogs for long enough, you learn to find the good ones. You realize that the judge isn't just pointing to the fluffiest dogs, or the dogs handled by his friends, or at dogs at random. You see the rhyme and reason, and you're able to find the quality dogs, too. Yes, there's interpretation and subjectivity, but there's a standard of quality at work as well.

I think the breed judge at national did just that, and I find it amazing to her judging ability that she was able to place so much a "family"...Much harder to do at a National then a local show as there are soo many dogs to go over.

 

[Mom2Melli]

Because I love showing in conformation. I love grooming my dogs and showing them at their very best. I love asking my dog to look cute for cookies (and I love telling my dog he's awesome, even if he didn't win). I love seeing the "really good ones" - the Shelties that fit the standard so well. I love learning about dogs from the people who have been in the breed for decades.

Definitely. When one is all the way "in" that world -- amazing stock to work with, years of practice, a great eye, a knack with the handling and grooming, good teaching/mentoring, showing is AMAZING. No doubt about it. The achievement of a major win in the conformation ring is something to be massively proud of. You (tofu pup) had a great start into the world, are having a wonderful time, and have so many more achievements headed your way. Someone such as yourself had an Aussie in my last dog class. Mom is a well known breeder, stunning stunning dog, she grew up handling and grooming, and the dog's show career and her experiences are amazing to hear and that dog is more than amazing to watch move around our class. They are campaigning the dog right now for Westminster & Eukanuba. I will see them on TV and say, "we know that dog!" I can totally see the amazing experience they are having. My 2 llamas come from a show breeder. Her two daughters have grown up grooming, handling, showing, and winning. They love it. It's been amazing family time and great experiences and confidence for her girls. Showing is a great experience. Not saying it is bad.

There are people who may think they HAVE to show in conformation when they would be more successful at other venues at a particular stage of the game or maybe forever. Different competitions may be a way into the show world or some people don't want to go that route and they shouldn't be bashed for that either. Some people's kids play sports and others do pagents and still others do academic decathalon. Any of the ways wrong? Nope. Just different directions for different folk all wth the same dedication to their little ones.
.
Since the thread is about show folk and working folk at odds, healthy dogs from good breeders are what matters. The bashing is what is not necessary.

 

[Calliesmom]

show grooming is what intimidates me and has been the biggest reason for me not doing conformation- I did hang out with Jocu's breeder at 2 shows and the little bit of grooming done at the show site was still way over my head....

then for conformation- it's not like I have show quality dogs- 2 oversize dogs, one cute but not up to standard girl who is at least in size and one underbite dog that several people have asked me if I'm going to show him. then I show off the teeth and everyone says - too bad......
I'm not intimidated by being in the ring- at least there are usually other dogs/handlers in there- unlike rally, obedience or agility where you are the only one out there and everyone is looking at you..... and you usually know where you messed up before you even leave the ring
I do wish that I had known more about handling before going in the ring for the first time...

 

[Justicemom]

.As an aside... there's a thing about subjectivity. When you really start to understand the standard, and when you've been looking at dogs for long enough, you learn to find the good ones. You realize that the judge isn't just pointing to the fluffiest dogs, or the dogs handled by his friends, or at dogs at random. You see the rhyme and reason, and you're able to find the quality dogs, too. Yes, there's interpretation and subjectivity, but there's a standard of quality at work as well.

I do agree with you. You can usually pick out what a judge is looking for in terms of type, outline or movement, head quality etc. You might not always agree but there is some sort of method to the choice. All the info goes in the notebook on the judges.

The judges that make me crazy are the ones that I can't follow along and seemed to pull dogs of varying type out all over the place. That info is marked it down in the note book too.

As an interesting aside because I was just at nationals I was looking at the winners from the past ASSA nationals. What I found interesting is starting around the early to mid 80's the BOB and BOS started to look like the dogs of today some 30 years later. I suspect a lot of those dogs if they were around today would be just as competitive now as they were back then.

 

[Caro]

Funny though, Tully's breeder (Tooneybank) didn't do that well in the rings, but her lines are found in all the top breeders of today. So certainly the breeders saw something in the lines that the judges didn't always pick up on.

 

[JessicaR]

Thank you for your responses!
I guess my problem is I didn't not really have much help with showing, nobody to show me how to groom. Everything I learned was from reading. I did not have parents that was involved, none of my friends at the time knew anything about dogs, and the closest kennel club is 1.5 hours away. Which wouldn't be too bad if all the classes wasn't held in the evening.

Plus I keep telling myself I need to get over my fears, suck it up and show my dogs I am still working on that!

I always heard people talk at the shows, that they couldn't show so and so because they were out of coat, so I assumed it was just something you didn't do. That and I was told at a show by a judge, after I won BOB that I better watch out for the male we beat, if he didn't still have his puppy coat, he might have won.