2x2 weaves - where am I going wrong?

I wasn't using the clicker to start with but found going from click -treat to just throwing the toy meant he thought 'lesson over, playtime' and was making no connection between running through the poles to getting the reward. As soon as I brought the clicker back into play there was a definite improvment and he reverted back to 'work' mode and started thinking about how to get the reward. I tried without the clicker today which was OK on the right side where he is now comfortable with but still needed it on the left side. I think when I have got him reliably entering from all directions I will try phasing it out though.

Holding the collar is a bit of a problem as that puts him right off. He doesn't normally have an issue but he's so focussed on the 'game' that he sees it as an interruption:confused2:

Today's video offering.

I think we are making progress now but there are still quite a few mistakes. As always, feedback very welcome :wink2:

http://youtu.be/Ft-Wibs5rFg

TBH, I'm not sure I'm going to be able to practice in the garden much longer as you can see on the video how the grass is deteriotating.
Epic's enjoying it so much though that it's hard to get him to quit, even when it started raining he didn't want to come in! It's a bit of a dilema It's actually me trampling round rather than Epic which is doing the damage and that is a problem with all our training outside. :no:
 
I'm going to add my thoughts here, but note that I can't watch any dog videos with sound, so I may have missed something with your voice/clicking, etc..!

It seems to me that maybe he doesn't understand that the toy is a reward for working, but rather just thinks it's a game (and I think that's what you were saying in your most recent post). Can you try using the toy as a reward in other things that he understands better? Every time he sets himself back up it looks to me that he is just waiting for you to throw, not trying to work out how to get you to throw it. Does that make sense?

And to answer the question you posed, you should not be encouraging him to cut back through the poles. Once he gets the toy, it helps if you go around to the side he's on and encourage him back to you.

One other thing that I noticed (and again, this could be due to the fact that I listen on mute), I would make sure that you really "reward" him with the toy. Tug, get excited, lots of praise. Keep his (and your!) energy up. Don't just move to the next throw. That way it's not a game of fetch, but a working session.
 
corbinam said:
I'm going to add my thoughts here, but note that I can't watch any dog videos with sound, so I may have missed something with your voice/clicking, etc..!

It seems to me that maybe he doesn't understand that the toy is a reward for working, but rather just thinks it's a game (and I think that's what you were saying in your most recent post). Can you try using the toy as a reward in other things that he understands better? Every time he sets himself back up it looks to me that he is just waiting for you to throw, not trying to work out how to get you to throw it. Does that make sense?

And to answer the question you posed, you should not be encouraging him to cut back through the poles. Once he gets the toy, it helps if you go around to the side he's on and encourage him back to you.

One other thing that I noticed (and again, this could be due to the fact that I listen on mute), I would make sure that you really "reward" him with the toy. Tug, get excited, lots of praise. Keep his (and your!) energy up. Don't just move to the next throw. That way it's not a game of fetch, but a working session.
Click to expand...

Jackpot!:wink2:
was going to post the same. Glad to see you guys are having fun though!
Another very important thing- when you moved to " hard" side and he did not do anything-what was your response? you moved back to easy side. What you are teaching him is not to struggle but give up and mommy will make it easier. Waiting for response while shaping could be the hardest part to do. This is what I would do- do few easy side and then move to the "hard" part and wait- what is Epic's choice? When shaping we are not looking for mechanical muscle memory but for choice /response to reward. Lack of reward means "try again".
 
:biggrin2:Thank you for the feedback guys! I really am grateful as Epic and I are both complete beginners so without your help I wouldn't have a clue what to do!:wink2:

That's a good idea about using the toy for rewarding some other training exersizes, which in itself will be useful as we get through an awful lot of treats sometimes! One thing I did notice was that even when I tried using a treat to get him back to my side he wasn't really interested because I had the toy out. This is Something because he is such a greedy dog and I had a hard job getting him toy focussed until I hit on the ring by accident. It obviously has a higher value now in his mind than food!:eek2:

I'm going to do some indoor work to get him to come to the Close (left) and Heel (right) positions while I have the toy and he can have that as his reward. Something to work on while the garden is afloat!

I'm glad I asked about the returning back through the poles as I had a feeling it wasn't right so will try and stop that from now.

The videos might be a bit misleading because I edited out a lot of the playing tug as mostly it was off camera and just listening to weird growling noises from Epic and me going 'yay' gets rather dull, but we do play in between. That's something else I'm pleased with as he wouldn't tug at all until a couple of months ago so it was something I had to work on.

SheltieChe, you are so right!

Lots to practice:biggrin2:
 
After a break of 3 days due to the weather and no time, I had another go on the 2x2 weaves today. For some reason the video is a bit dark although it was a sunny day. We had 3 short sessions and I have now broken out the second set of poles.

I put them the recommended distance of 15ft (4.5m) apart which was pretty much the whole garden. I've seen on other peoples' videos that they've started out by playing in the middle of the two before asking for a complete run through both sets, so that's what I tried. I'm really quite pleased that he now does seem to be grasping this (as you can hear at the end of the video!). I don't know what anyone else has found but I can't completely 'free-shape' (i.e. no luring) as my shelties tend to bark an awful lot while they are working things out so I usually give a bit of assistance. I found that moving up to the side of the second set for a few gos gave Epic the support he needed to carry on through. This probably isn't right but there is a considerable distance between the two sets and it seems to require quite a leap of faith on the dog's part to carry on through after being used to just one. I might move them a bit closer tomorrow which I think he will find easier. They are both at the 9 and 3 o'clock position (I am at 12) but offset so the second pair are more over to the right.
http://youtu.be/1smg7I9WpZA
 
He is looking pretty good! I don't remember this stage with Lexi, so I can't remember if she had trouble putting the two sets together.

Do you think Epic would move ahead to the second set if you were moving with him rather than just standing? Even now I don't know if Lexi would run to the second set with me standing still. My forward motion kept her moving (and looking) forward. Just a thought.

Not sure if it's helpful, but here's the video of Lexi around the same time, you can see us move forward. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWaDlJDM-hY
 
as usual, corbinam is right on.
As Daisy Peel says, handling is luring. So you lure with your body instead of toys. Make sure you do not do it all the time otherwise you will build yourself in the picture though...
 
SheltieChe said:
as usual, corbinam is right on.
As Daisy Peel says, handling is luring. So you lure with your body instead of toys. Make sure you do not do it all the time otherwise you will build yourself in the picture though...
Click to expand...

So right I am afraid I did that with Diva's weaves. Now I am tried to work myself out of the picture. She is great at the beginning, the end still needs work
 
Corbinam, your video was really useful, as it was more or less the stage we are at now and shows what I was doing by going alongside to the second set. I went forward with him the first few times I then stood back behind the first set to 'see what happened'.
It was a bit hit and miss to begin with and that's when the barking started up :rolleyes2: because he was figuring it out.

I have done 3 short sessions with him today and moved the sets a bit closer together which was a great deal more sucessful. 15ft is a long distance to run on to something but reducing it down to about half that makes the connection more obvious. I would say he is now doing it right about 75% of the time, the barking is a lot less today because the link between running through both sets I guess is clearer for him. I've managed to get him going in from all sides, but we are still quite close to the first set at the moment which is due to limited space as much as anything (and trying to protect the grass!)

On the video I look like the dullest handler in the world but you can see Epic is really energetic and I found more excitement from me just makes him too over the top to focus! I've also now got a little grabby thing (a 3" lead that attaches while he is training) that will mean I don't have to fiddle round trying to find his collar to get him into position which was rather a nuisance today.

http://youtu.be/yRW3oA3Gt7c

We have been doing this now for slightly under 2 weeks, but not every day and the first few days were definitly finding our feet and the initial shaping with the clicker ans treat. I am finding this a lot harder than it looks on the videos I've seen and there were times when I thought about jacking it in, but I really wanted to give it a proper try especially as Epic seems to tick all the boxes (e.g clciker trained, toy motivated). Now I can see him looking and positioning himself to go through both sets and he is heading off for the poles rather than fixated on me and the toy. It really helps being able to video it and watch it back. We have another class tomorrow and I'll be able to show my instructor that we've made some progress. I can't thank you all enough for your ongoing advice which is really helping.:biggrin2:
One thing's for sure, I think we are going to love doing agility!!
 
Last edited:
Love it, so glad you like it as well
You're one dedicated handler, hats off!!! :yes:
yes, there IS a lot more to it than at first you see, it's a tough one to get concept on.
When I joined and started out brand new in agility nobody on the Forum had tried this method out, yet either... I know about it being confusing, but now really love it! It makes so much sense to me when you see the end result on focus on independance for the entries.
ALSO it was really FUN to train, with much less anxiety once you get the idea of the stages and progress. It's a matter of working it every day in short sessions, leaving the dog eager for more!

I believe weaves are tough to trian for ANY new handler regardless of method. Will be happy to view your videos when I get home from work :D
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top