A dog who loves her job

Phebe*DD said:
Don't kid yourself that SG is the only person who knows how to train a dog and that her methods work every time for every dog.

SG is certainly a great resource. I've used lots of her ideas with success, but not every one of them worked for me and my dog. There are lots of great trainers who have different ideas. It's important to me to remain open to those ideas so that I'm not limited to one person's ideas and methods.

As far as markers for incorrect behavior, we'll just have to agree to disagree. For what it's worth, I don't use 'No', and I don't use a loud or threatening tone. I use 'wrong' in a firm, low-pitched tone.
Click to expand...

I totally with you here, there are plenty of really good trainers out there who achieve brilliant results with dogs they train and they train differently. It is really not about even SG, brilliant as she is. It is about science how dogs learn. Dogs do what reinforcing. Dogs unable to process request " don't do that" only "Do that"
Concetrating on punishment however mild one as training method going to have unexpected fallout, it always does.
I too take Leo off the field when he starts acting distracted. But that is not what building his behavior. For every punishment I use, I evaluate what happened/ was the session too long, etc/ and work out plan how can I reinforce behavior I want to see- that is what will build behavior I want.
Like there is one particular Golden Leo goes nuts when that dog running... so I just plan few sessions of not training but sitting on the field with Leo in a down or sit and reinforce calm behavior around that Golden running. I could put Leo in a crate when that Golden is running and I could tell him No or Oops... but that is not what going to make Leo behave in a calm manner around this dog.
Ashley, I will ask on our recallers forum if people have suggestions, I am just a newbie when it comes to agility.
 
SheltieChe said:
... Dogs do what reinforcing. Dogs unable to process request " don't do that" only "Do that" ...
Click to expand...

Perhaps, that is why only rewarding attentive, focused behavior on the field with the opportunity to run works. Removing a dog from the field when it is unfocused is not punishment. It's preventing the dog from self-rewarding when the behavior presented is not what is being asked by the handler.
 
Hey, you're where I was last year with Kai! Including the bark down at the weaves. I had to do the same thing- add a consequence for missing the weaves. It HAS worked. She gets one try, and if she misses, she gets time out... or if it's on course at a trial, she gets pulled.
I tried all else to correct this.... and I do mean ALL else first. I kept putting it off, and putting it off as I didn't want to add a negative reinforcement, but it was only getting progressively worse. It didn't get better until she was given a choice... she could weave right, or the fun ended. She KNEW how to weave. She CHOSE not to collect and find her entry. Why collect when you can just blast past them? (this is a dog who has little patience for waiting around.... she also used to blow off the table because it was a waste of time to stop, and wouldn't wait until the teeter came all the way down to go ahead and run off the end to continue on- she now has a wait on the teeter).
My trainer described what she was doing differently though. She told me the dog had no reason to collect and weave right when she could have another try at it because I would inevitably bring her back and let her do it again. She had to be given a reason to want to collect and hit the entry (we in a way weren't training you must hit the weave entry the first time, we were training you run past the weaves, and then come back and hit them). Because of the new way of handling it, she has shaped up and knocked off the crap, and is collecting and hitting her entries correctly. It is only every once in a while that she has to be reminded. And yes, this wasn't a training issue of she didn't know how, because it cleared up as soon as I made the fun of running and barking at me end.
I do agree with Phebe. SG's methods aren't the only way that works, and you can't just assume the dog doesn't know its' job. Mine did, and it's very obvious when I say I tried all else, and the ONLY way she started hitting entries regularly was when there was a consequence to NOT hitting them. Playtime ended (not a word said- just pulled from the weaves, and put in a crate for several minutes). Weave pole entries were miraculously fixed. The point isn't to make agility not fun. It is to drive a point home to the dog.... and some do need that point made.
But you know, nothing ANYONE puts out is something to follow 100% necessarily (Linda M, Greg D, Susan G, Jenn Crank, etc). You listen, learn, and try everything presented, and you keep what works for you and your dog. Not all can fall into one way of working... That's why in the horse world, when you run into cookie cutter trainers, you find where a number of their rejects are sent down the road... usually to an auction, or to the amish. These horses are passed on because they didn't fit a trainers particular way of working. There are world champion horse trainers who want to follow one way of doing things, and one way only, and when they come across a horse that doesn't fit that way, it is sent on elsewhere. I've been part of training many of these horses who've been sent on as 'untrainable' or 'worthless' because they didn't fit one persons way of doing things. So no, we can't say there is only one persons way of doing things, and that their way is the best way for every dog and every situation. Otherwise, these world champion horse trainers would never have to send a horse down the road, because their way would always be THE way for every horse that came through the door.
 
Last edited:
Removal technique can work if done correctly. What one of my trainers did, however, was a reverse removal where the handler left the ring without the dog....

One of our more advanced handlers has a dog who decided breaking start lines stays was a good idea. It was self-rewarding because the dog got to take the first obstacle or two before the handler could call her back to the star line.

The way our instructor suggested to handle it was to simply have the handler stop playing. While the dog was off running its own course, the handler said absolutely nothing to the dog but turned around and walked out of the ring (the trainer closed the gate behind him so the dog had to stay in the ring) to the crate room where the dog couldn't see him.

The dog was a bit confused about why the handler wasn't playing the game any more. After about 5 attempts at this, the dog settled and payed more attention.

(FYI - the dog in question was a Portuguese Water Dog)
 
If the problem is definitely not Lexi not knowing how to do the weaves, I think removing her would work. Sometimes dogs get so excited they are past that threshold of where they can function rationally (or as close as dogs get to that).

In Flyball (different sport, similar issue), Duncan loves to chase the dog in the other lane. So he will pop out of his lane and try to run the other dog down. When he's chased a few jumps, he would return to his lane, get the ball, and come back to me. Chasing can be extremely dangerous in competition, so we wanted to train him out of it.

First, we put up a gate between the lanes for safety. (Duh.) At first, I resorted to running up to him and shouting (only because the noise is so loud, you have to shout to be heard) "No!" This was definitely harsh, but chasing is just so extremely dangerous when all of the tensions are up. Duncan responded by stopping chasing (for that run only) and completing the lane. I would treat him at the end for stopping the behavior. Well, this just taught him that he could goof and still get paid (like letting Lexi bark and miss the entrance and still get to continue agility).

What finally has worked is that when he chases, the boxloader pulls the ball off of the box. That way, when he continues to the box, nothing is going to come out - the game is over. Only when he doesn't chase is when he gets the ball (which is one of his biggest motivations, so big that a tiny tennis ball is the ultimate reward on the agility field). It is a similar sort of removal. The excitement drops down a notch and lets him reason out why the fun stopped. You are taking Lexi away from her reward - which is continuing on. It shouldn't be long before she understands the importance of the weaves.
 
I'll tell you what my trainer said about Koji and what Koji was doing.

When I was doing the weaves, he was popping out, all over the place. So after a handful of times going back to do it. My trainer said, "stop. hold on. okay, so Koji seems to LOVE doing this and having him restart isn't teaching him a thing. Let's try this instead. When he pops out, grab him by the ruff, put him back in where he popped and finish." So, I did that. He still popped out barking at me, etc. Too excited. She told me to sit down, she wanted to try something else another run.

Next run, he wasn't entering correctly even though I was standing there. It was strange, but everyone agrees it's the weaves, not really him. They're sucky weaves and are getting new ones. Anyways. She told me before I grab his ruff (which he doesn't care about so it's not "punishment" to a point), to say "NO" and MEAN it. Then either walk him back by the collar or ruff, or pick him up and take him back to the beginning. The first time I said no, i felt bad. Trainer said, "don't worry, he's so hyped up, he can take a harsher no". So, next time, I said no like when he tries to steal my food, lol. That got him to stop, look at me. I picked him up, put him back in front and voila! No more issues.

The NEXT run, we all agreed. I would try it once, if he failed, I'd say no, then try again. If he failed the second time, I'd say no, pick him up and my turn is skipped until the end. Basically a time out. No treats, no attention, nothing.

For Koji, who rarely gets told no on the course and for a dog that has fun even when he has to repeat something over and over again.....this is what works. I have seen it work. Depending on how worked up he is, is how I determine how strong of a No I want to give. When we're in the house, working on something simple and he's not worked up, I just say in a matter of fact tone, but not angry nor yelling, "nope, that's not it". In class, I have to basically yell No at him.

For us, it's been working. And it's mostly because Koji loves doing agility and nothing he does is ever corrected. If all you recall, me walking him off does nothing. Me putting him in a sit/down and walking off does nothing. For him, it's all fun and games. He doesn't understand why we stop, and it doesn't fix anything. I hate to say it, but the NRM/NO seems to do it for him now. And his reward? To keep going and playing and having fun.

This is my two cents. My first trainer never had me do that with him. Just to continually try it over and over again. This trainer saw that he loves doing it over and over again and even when we start over, it's still fun. So by not giving a No, I'm basically telling him what he's doing is right and WHEEEE let's do it again. And again. And again. And Koji is just loving it!!! And doing it wrong over and over again. So, I'm basically rewarding his bad stuff (popping weaves, blowing contacts, etc) by allowing him to do it again. Sigh. The things we learn.

Critique it all you want. But it works and it has in no way crushed his spirit for the love of agility. If anything, it has increased it because now he makes less mistakes and that means more running.

This works for Koji. I'm not sure how sensitive Lexi is, especially when training. I think you and your trainer have to determine that. Like I said, it wasn't until I yelled NO that it finally got through his brain, when he was all hyped up from running. I felt so guilty, but that's what it took. I know Lexi is sensitive to be aware of how much you need to use. You know her best. Koji is sensitive if he's not hyped up. A simple "uh-oh" works when he's not crazy. lol.

Sorry if I was babbling away. lol. I wasn't trying to form a nice well written post. :o
 
The judge from Australia who came down for our recent trials said pretty much the same thing as k9kreationz at a small workshop he held. If the dog isn't focused (includes being distracted, running amok, running its own course, doing its own thing, just basically not giving 100% focus to the task at hand), give it a time out.
 
wow, great discussion!!

the obstacles are the reward for her? I would evaluate if there is not enough value for the correct entry and staying in it? Are the sessions too long, so she loses focus... etc

I am leaning with SheltieChe on this one in general, and I really agree what Katherine said!!

On the other hand I am a noob :razz:
 
Oh boy...this is one heck of a discussion. There's lots of good points from all sides.

I'll put my two cents in, for whatever it's worth:

Firstly, re: corrections. I have a few basic rules for any training correction:
a) they should never be given in anger/frustration
b) they should be quick (within five seconds of whatever the behaviour was which resulted in the correction)
c) they should be fair
d) they should be in the best interests of the dog

Whenever I am deciding whether or not a correction is appropriate, the above four points are what runs through my head. If the correction doesn't meet the above criteria, I don't use it. I don't crate dogs as a correction, because it doesn't meet the criteria in b).

My second thought:
Our dogs are what we believe they are. Dogs don't understand a comment such as "That is wrong. Use your brain."...but humans do. I have seen far to many humans use comments such as this, and it becomes a convenient way to blame the dog's brain for the human's lack of ability to communicate what they want. This isn't a dog problem - this is a human problem (I'll get into that later).

In addition, as a correction, it is far too long of a sentence. You also have to be very aware of your tone - if you use a light tone, the dog thinks it's doing something good. If you use a harsh tone, the dog recognizes that it's doing something wrong, but may not be clear in exactly where it went wrong. I use an extremely short grunt which pulls Starr up short - he hears it, and he knows he went wrong. If he enters the weave poles incorrectly, I catch him at the first weave, so he knows exactly where the error was and he doesn't self reward by completing the weave poles.

My third (final!) thought:
You've identified the main problem: Lexi goes too fast to slow down and get her entry correctly. You've gotten through the most difficult part of figuring out a problem like this: identifying the root of the problem. If this is correct, it's not a matter of the weaves being an issue, it's a matter of Lexi knowing how/when to decelerate, and this is where you need to take an honest look at your training.

Whenever something goes wrong in my training, my general approach is that I am the only one to blame - not the dog. My IQ is far higher than my dogs, and I'm the one who's asked her to perform in this sport - why in the world would I blame him/her? I didn't put in the time the dog needed. My cues weren't clear enough. I missed a cue. I didn't realize I needed a cue in a specific spot. I didn't give a high enough reward for the behaviour. I haven't practiced enough. I didn't pre-plan. I didn't reinforce. I didn't proof. I didn't break down the exercise enough. I pushed the dog before s/he was ready. I didn't make it clear when s/he made the original mistake. I waited too long to correct. My voice said one thing, and my body language said another. I haven't done enough bonding activities. I haven't done enough focus activities...and the list goes on...and on...and on...

If the dog makes a mistake it is due to my training. And if it is due to my training, it isn't fair to give the dog a consequence for my failings. Can you imagine if the dogs gave us a consequence every time we screwed up???? Think of how many times you've gotten a cue or a cross wrong!

You will have many dogs over the course of your lifetime, so my main advice is to choose a path which reflects what type of trainer you want to be, instead of what type of dog you want to have. Focusing on your mistakes will bring you down one path; focusing on the dogs mistakes will bring you down the other.

The bottom line is: Lexi adores you. You adore Lexi. You will do your absolute best to make a decision that reflects that mutual love. There are many opinions on here, and none of us have all of the answers. A variety of corrections have the potential to work - you have the difficult task of deciding which one is appropriate for you and your dog.

Good luck - please keep us updated!
 
so I thought, based on my new Do Land values, about what I would do if my dog has an entry weave/ popping out issue. I will embrace hole in my training- my dog gave me excellent feedback- the value is running around weaves, circle weaves... now the real question is how do I increase value of response I want, i.e. correct entry?
Question- does my dog know what I ask of him? Is criteria crystal clear? Is there any other habitat where dog will perform weaves 100 %? Lets say dog does perfect weaves at home, no running past, zoomies, decelerates on time, has great speed, desire, whole DASH...
what I will do then is to increase distractions at home agility field... Can Lexi run perfect weave at home with Bentley eating his dinner near weaves? Can Lexi run if you sit on the porch, 50 yards away and say weaves and she does it? Can she run if Bentley playing with neighbor's Golden? Can she run if I put plate of pot roast in the middle of agility field? If the answer is yes then I am absolutely sure she knows what are you asking and she makes a choice not to do it perfectly in a different habitat, i.e. agility class. Then I can say to myself, yes, I earned my right to punish my dog. First I will stop the reinforcement i.e. no more repeat entries, possibly no weaves for while at all. Then I will build response I want first in old habitat with increased distractions, then moving it to other neutral habitat, lets say football field nearby, if she does well moving to the weaves in class but off hours, when not many dogs around etc.
Caution here is to be sure you have laid a great foundation of value for what you want first before using a “time-out” or you can get more frustration and possibly shut down behavior depending on the dog…
Disclaimer- my writing is not intended to be a lecture how to raise great agility dog, it is more like let me share what brain can come up with if you start thinking in DO terms...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top