Agility runs by Epic #3

[corbinam]

Weaves can be such a pain


With Epic's weaves, I would be going home and practicing the poles three or four times a day at home, then at the next comp I would slow him down for the weaves, use a close command if necessary and then take him through them steadily.

If you have a fast dog don't ever slow him down.It's demotivating.It's only going to come back and bite you in the butt!! Weaves aren'ta pain.If taught correctly they are easy.JMO

I think it depends on the dog that you have. If you have a slower dog, or a dog that is easily demotivated, then yes, I agree. I would not slow my dog into the weaves (or anywhere on course). They need all the extra oomph and go get 'em that you can channel into them

But, if you have a fast dog, then teaching a dog to collect (not the same as slowing down, though they're related) before entering the weaves is important. This is why Lexi and I struggle with the weaves so much. She doesn't want to collect at all, so harder entries are problematic. Of course, she is an odd mixture of drivey, excitable and sensitive. So she blows past the weaves, or can't hold her entry because she doesn't want to collect, but if you ask her to fix it too many times she worries and will start to run past them. So I'm still puzzling this one out!

 

[labgirl]

[If you have a fast dog don't ever slow him down.It's demotivating.It's only going to come back and bite you in the butt!! Weaves aren'ta pain.If taught correctly they are easy.JMO/QUOTE]

I know my Merlin, if I keep letting him speed through making the same mistake he grows frustrated. If I ask him to steady himself and concentrate we hit it spot on. I agree that part of it is about asking the dog to 'collect' itself, that is why sometimes I bring Merlin close before I send him into the weaves, even in comps, just to steady him.

His speed is not lessening but increasing in the weaves along with his accuracy and confidence

Weaves are one of the toughest bits of equipment for inexperienced dogs and handlers alike which can cause a lot of frustration. Yep, and sometimes they are a real pain when it all seems to go wrong.

 

[SheltieChe]

I believe it is entirely possibly to train a¨motivated dog¨, dog that does not get frustrated easily, gets demotivated when you return him back to the weave entrance or leaves the ring...
Perseverance is a trait dog either born or not and many obedience trainers are looking for such dogs because as opposite to agility there no naturally build fun factors in obedience such as running and chasing. But it is also possible to create a training where dog will work on skills where your NRM meaning moves from ¨you wrong, stupid, no reward for you¨ to ¨you are one step away from getting all the fun and rewards¨

 

[Sharon]

Agility runs by Epic

Weaves are one of the toughest bits of equipment for inexperienced dogs and handlers alike which can cause a lot of frustration. Yep, and sometimes they are a real pain when it all seems to go wrong.[/QUOTE]

Weaves if taught correctly to a green dog and handler are only hard if you make it hard.JMO It also depends on your teacher how good she is and again this is JMO.I have seen so many awesome dogs ruined by backyard teachers.They get a Novice title and next thing you know they are teaching.

 

[Justicemom]

As you know I have been having some weave issues with Birch at trials. I am really thinking it is a combinations of lack of focus, stress and lack of understanding.

Though he appears to know the weaves in practice I realized he wasn't being challanged enough to make him think about what he was doing. In the last 2 weeks I have been doing weaves daily 2-3 reps 2x day. I have different angles, over a jump, though a tunnel, turns(around the clock). different length of weaves 4-15, I broke the weaves up into sections of 3 4 poles each and had him weaves exit weaves exit weave exit, I varied the angles. Everything I did I first jazzed him up and got him really excited. I wanted him to do it at speed and learn to handle and think at speed because that is what I am expecting him to do.

I did that bit of making sure the dog had it right with Diva and Ember. Yes they rarely if never make mistakes in weaves but OMG where they slow and no it is not easy to speed them up again because it is like learning 2 different behaviors. It does not translate. TRUST ME 3 dogs-successfully taught ot be SLOW and then I needed to retrain the whole darn thing.

Rachel was having the same kind of issues with Birch's dad Grizz. He was stalling in the weaves she was down there guiding him though with her hands almost begging him to do them. I told her you need to stop helping him in practice because he is relying on it and when the stress of trials come he is freezing. We worked 2 weeks, channels with guides, whipped him up with a ball toy(Grizz is crazy nuts over balls) and no hand help, just get him excited run though the weaves, We quickly closed the weaves and took off the guides because he really did know what to do. She practiced every day just like I was doing with Birch and then she would throw the ball.

We trialed this weekend, Grizz hit every entrance and was zooming though the weaves, so much so that 2 people came up and asked me what happened, he looked like a different dog. Birch hit all of his entrances, popped the second pole 3/6 times because he is still learning to collect. But it was a marked improvement. He was fast and I was driving he though the poles.

I agree you need to know your dog. For example, I never make Ember redo in trials. But then Ember knows what to do and her mistakes are honest mistakes. In her case, because speed is the issue I would rather keep a good frame of mind and her speed up then make sure everything is perfect. Practice is different but I need to focus on alway always keeping her up and excited and doing everything at speed. It does me no good slow he down to do it right. But with Diva and Birch of course I make them do it again but it is the way I have them do it again that makes the difference because it is techincal not emotional. If however, I am needing to redo alot I have to consider if we really ready to be out there trialing. IMHO, if I am not darn near 100% in practice with the equipment, I don't believe I should be out there trialing.

It took me a long time to figure out- train in agility for attitude, motivation, speed to always be there first when training and then the behavior fundations first, then the whole behavior and sequences. Always maintaining the attitude, motivation and speed. If your instructor does not know how to help you teach the dog while maintaining the speed it might be time to find a new instructor. My first instructor told me with Diva. You need to slow her down and make her be right, nope not going to do that. First night at the new instructors she told me 4 things and 90% of Divas' issues were gone. However, even now years later issues crop up with the way she was first taught.

 

[labgirl]

My trainer is KC approved, has competed with Leonbergers at top level and beaten border collies in Kennel Club comps (the toughest around here) and is very, very hot on weaves, she likes accuracy AND speed. So if she says slow down and get it right I listen

Merlin now loves the weaves and I can hardly hold him from charging into them when he sees them. So I am content with the training I am getting and, for me, this method is working.

 

[Justicemom]

My trainer is KC approved, has competed with Leonbergers at top level and beaten border collies in Kennel Club comps (the toughest around here) and is very, very hot on weaves, she likes accuracy AND speed. So if she says slow down and get it right I listen

Merlin now loves the weaves and I can hardly hold him from charging into them when he sees them. So I am content with the training I am getting and, for me, this method is working.

That is great your instructor is so knowledgable. Mine wasn't and it was very poor advise to slow my dogs down. Like I said they especially Ember are very very accurate but speed is not easy to regain once it is gone. That is my experience with 2 dogs and I was headed that way with a 3rd.

I too believe in accuracy and speed my dogs have both. But I refuse to sacrifice the speed anymore. I feel they need to be developed together.

 

[seashel]

Weaves

Fascinating discussion - I love hearing different viewpoints. One of the joys of training is that no one method is going to be right for every dog or handler.

I expect the sort of trouble shooting you can do depends on how weaves were taught? I was reading and agreeing with bits of everyone's posts because they all have relevance to me.

Epic was taught weaves using the 2x2 method. Although I found this initially very difficult to understand, it has been sucessful for Epic, he has masses of drive and wouldn't deal with being physically handled through. The errors we are having I think are due to me not giving him time to make the entry and that he is still getting used to the competition environment - so I think it will improve. He only knows how to weave fast, if he slows down significantly he loses the rhythm and will come out. He was slower in the class than in training, but that was him steadying himself possibly concentrating(?) but he still had the rhythm. The first few poles on the agility run were exceptionally slow but he quickened up for the rest. Epic just likes running fast, it's the way he is and if he slows down then something isn't right in his world. Happy = speed, unhappy=slow for him so I'm trying to train him incorporating the speed so he associates whatever he's doing with a positive mindset. (I hope that makes sense?) Revel though felt really pressured if I tried speeding things up. His whole attitude is naturally more thoughtful and methodical. He would have been a lovely acurate agility dog but never one of the quick ones!

I'm looking forward to doing lots of weave practice during the autumn and winter. I will try and post some videos at some point so you can see our progress.

 

[seashel]

A very educational weekend!

Well this weekend has been a real eyeopener. Epic and I have been to our first KC agility show. My reason for going was to get him officially measured as without this he cannot compete in KC graded classes. It's been something I've been fretting about for ages as he was just on the cusp of small/medium. I would have run him as a medium but it wouldn't have been my preference at all. So I was elated when after a bit of a dither, he measured in as a SMALL!!

We will have to repeat the process in 12 months to finalize it but I'm happier now he's measured in. I'm not planning on competing yet but measuring sessions are rather thin on the ground so it seemed a good opportunity. (The independent shows we have been running in don't require official measuring.)

As I had to enter him to be applicable for measuring we did the Allsorts Class (for new, old or infirm dogs) which is clear round only. It was a two day show and typically I entered for Sunday when the measuring session was saturday but it was a good excuse to go and watch twice!

Here is our run from today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ym2IsYLUHnM
The middle section is a real mess. I didn't turn myself after three so was facing the tunnel, hence an immediate off course. My attempt at a FC was rubbish (my right hand is pointing in completely the wrong direction!). When I've freeze framed it I think I can see why he made all the mistakes. After the tunnel is my favourite bit because as you can hear, the end section needed a good send on and a lot of dogs spun before the final jump. For Epic to run on that strongly away from me to an area where people and dogs are milling around is a huge step. I didn't leave him long at the start because there was a tugging BC directly behind, something he hates. But he waited until I called. And what you can't see on the video is that directly behind where the lady filming was, there was a class of large grade 5-7 dogs in progress. So for Epic to run that confidently in the presence of one of his main phobias is fantastic.

I learned a lot about my dog today. When I had Epic at the show for measuring he was on his normal walking collar and lead. He was tense, he was flinching and plainly edgy to be in the situation of so many running, barking bouncing dogs. His tail was tucked in and he was keen to get back to the car. In fact I wasn't going to run him today but just going to try and acclimatise him to the show. But when I took him out wearing his agility harness, he was almost a different dog and when we headed over to the ring and I had his toy as well he was literally bouncing with excitement, tail up. It really made me realise what doing agility means to him. Whether or not we ever win anything I will always try and keep this in mind and really this is the ultimate result. He is so happy playing the game he loves that everything else is largely irrelevant and I'm determined that if I find competing interferes with the fun then I'll just stick to training. If I forget this then you all have my permission to remind me because I am rather a competitive person!!

I'm also starting to think he is going to need very precise handling so I really need to be much clearer on what I'm doing. I also think the more twisty courses will suit Epic better rather than long sweeping runs. Actually we've done next to no practice on long lines of jumps so that is another area to work at...I've got a better idea of which classes to enter now too.

I learned masses by watching the other competitors too (and filming some runs to compare). In particular relating to the discussion on what to do if the dog goes wrong, I saw that the better handlers carried on as if everything was going fine rather than going back and repeating. I was able to talk to another sheltie handler and she said to never make the dog feel it has gone wrong on the course as shelties can get demotivated quickly. Better to go wrong positivly than go right tentitivly seemed to be the message and is something I need to remember.

Negatives were that it was a shame to see some of the handlers in the higher grades change to 'can't be bothered to continue' type of handling (sort of go slack) and to notice the subdueing effect this had on the dog. Also the ones that witheld the reward when their run went wrong.

Positives: I was deeply impressed by one lady who had limited mobility and handled her BC almost entirely from the centre of the ring on verbal commands. I won't hopefully need to head down that route but her control was amazing. It was also wonderful to watch the top graded dogs and handlers tackling difficult courses with apparent ease - if a little demoralising! Also lovely to see a lot of young handlers skillfully competing in the higher classes with the adults.

All in all, a very enjoyable weekend.

 

[Sharon]

Agility runs by Epic

My trainer is KC approved, has competed with Leonbergers at top level and beaten border collies in Kennel Club comps (the toughest around here) and is very, very hot on weaves, she likes accuracy AND speed. So if she says slow down and get it right I listen

Merlin now loves the weaves and I can hardly hold him from charging into them when he sees them. So I am content with the training I am getting and, for me, this method is working.

What ever works for you is great!!For me no but glad it works for you!!