An Update on Toby

[OntarioSheltie]

My question is at what point do you consider medication? I'm hoping Bailey improves when I move out, so I won't even have to think about that.

I have a friend with a Boykin Spaniel and she has somewhat recently started medicating him. Honestly, he's the same dog, just with less edge. He does still bark, but not the frustrated, anxiety ridden panicky bark that he used to do. He doesn't get as out of control as quickly.

He still competes in agility (barks the whole time like he did before) but he just seems like a happier dog since he worries significantly less.

But, that's just an outsider's perspective.

Believe me, medicating him has crossed my mind more than once and its something that I still haven't ruled out completely.

Some times I feel like throwing up my hands in the air and saying I'm done, because its easier to throw him on medication.

But then I remind myself that A) Toby has been showing improvement with socialization and that medicating him really isn't easier. B) I really haven't had him for that long (6 1/2 months) and C) I'd still have to continue socializing him and I'd also have to start giving him a pill 1-2 times a day, possibly for the rest of his life.

So for now I'm going to keep up with the obedience training and maybe do some agility for his confidence and keep up the socializing. If he stops improving or after a year he's still having significant anxiety, then I'll reconsider medicating him.

I have lived with a dog that had many, many fears to the sounds of normal everyday life, he was also afraid of bugs, flashing lights, shadows and other things too numerous to mention, not thunder tho. He spinned, barked frantically and would get so upset that he didn’t even seem aware that we were trying to help him calm. It is frustrating because sometimes you don’t even know what sets them off, some insignificant sound that you don’t even notice. What helped the most was - we finally decided that it was not necessary for him to “learn” to like all the things he was afraid of. I know that many would not agree, but we just started to change “our” life to accommodate his. It wasn’t necessary for him to “learn to like” the smoke alarm, oven timer, sweeper”, and other things, he could easily be sent outside to play and do his business. We didn’t use flashes on the camera, we caught all the flies and bugs before he saw them or at least attempted to, we didn’t climb on chairs when he was in the same room which he also didn’t like. It wasn’t so difficult, and as we eliminated the things he didn’t like he became much calmer and was better able to handle the things we weren’t able to eliminate. He was like a different dog. Louie was a rescue and maybe because of all his fears and obsessions he was over the top, obsessed with his love for me too, I was so blessed to have Louie in my life, he died six months ago, I miss him, I would give anything in the world to have him back, fears and all. If there is such a thing as a “heart dog” he was it.

I'm so sorry for your loss but so glad that you were able to rescue Louie and give him such a wonderful, happy life. Dealing with an anxious dog definitely has its challenges but its wonderful that you were able to find a way to manage his issues and allow him to live life to its fullest.

My biggest problem with Toby is that he's mostly triggered by city sounds, which is difficult because we live in the city and have no plans to move. He's having a sort of relapse now because there's construction near our house. Toby freaking out about the smoke alarm and the oven door are just two of many things that frighten him. Oiling the oven door or moving the smoke alarm won't help him because he'll find something else to be afraid of. The oven door didn't used to be a problem, but its become one.

Geez, this has me re-thinking medication again...maybe my socialization isn't working if he's just transferring his fears elsewhere...

 

[SheepOfBlue]

Does he have toys that make noise? Maybe if he can associate noise with fun some. Still good to hear your are making progress even with the setbacks.

 

[OntarioSheltie]

Does he have toys that make noise? Maybe if he can associate noise with fun some. Still good to hear your are making progress even with the setbacks.

Yes, he has toys that make noise, it doesn't help.

I'm going to buy him a cd that was made for desensitizing dogs to sounds. It has lots of common noises that he's afraid of so hoping it will help him.

 

[take4roll10]

My biggest problem with Toby is that he's mostly triggered by city sounds, which is difficult because we live in the city and have no plans to move. He's having a sort of relapse now because there's construction near our house. Toby freaking out about the smoke alarm and the oven door are just two of many things that frighten him. Oiling the oven door or moving the smoke alarm won't help him because he'll find something else to be afraid of. The oven door didn't used to be a problem, but its become one.

Geez, this has me re-thinking medication again...maybe my socialization isn't working if he's just transferring his fears elsewhere...

Sounds a lot like Bailey and she just seems to be getting worse and worse as she gets older, despite training.

I'm hoping moving out will help her. If not, I may consider something to help her relax. I've tried the thundershirt and it doesn't work for her. I also tried Rescue Remedy. The first time, it did nothing. The second time, it really relaxed her. She was much calmer and less reactive, but she seemed a little drugged up. I also took her on a 4 mile walk that day, so I don't know if it was really the Rescue Remedy that helped or the physical activity finally caught up with her. I'm also not sure if Rescue Remedy can be used every day.

She's just so hard to predict. Some days she's an angel and some days she barks at everything. And I can't figure out why one day and not the other. Yesterday, she was a nutcase when I came home from work, but the day before she was perfect and I didn't do anything different.

Is there any other natural thing you can do to calm them down and make them less reactive?

 

[SheltieChe]

Melissa, I am same as you would hold off meds until absolutely must. There are very few dogs with really broken brain, most of that is just learned behavior so giving meds for it kind of not fair to the dog.
From our own experience few things things work well for Leo who is auditory sensitive. Leo was sensitive to dishwasher sound and would bark madly to it.

Choose the sound and you want to deal with lets say closing the oven door. Go to the furthest point of your house where Toby does not react to it. You must have dog bed with heavily positive reinforced habits there. Put him on that dog bed and let someone close that oven door several times, it must be his choice to stay on that dog bed or react to it. If reacts, record the sound and make is softer for next session. If does not react and stays on the bed, jackpot with sky high value treats. Treats should be given in rapid succession 10-15 at the time of choice point made. If you go this route you will notice that the more dog allowed to make choices the calmer dog feels and less triggers he has. Distance duration and intensity are your variables but choice is always belongs to the dog.
Another option-let someone close door and get into really fun game with your other girls- goofy, noisy something really fun and see what Toby choice is. For us it was really helpful that Che is calm dog, Leo learned fast from imitating him as well.

 

[OntarioSheltie]

Melissa, I am same as you would hold off meds until absolutely must. There are very few dogs with really broken brain, most of that is just learned behavior so giving meds for it kind of not fair to the dog.

I'm not sure that I completely agree with that. I agree, that medication should used when everything else fails and that many people are too quick to try medication, but I also don't believe that that few dogs have broken brains (with byb and puppy mills, some dogs are born that way more and more) or that medication is unfair.

Are some people prone to panic attacks despite happy upbringings and do those people deserve to be medicated when all else has failed? Absolutely. Are some people too quick to jump to medication? Definitely. The same goes for depression.

There is nothing wrong with medication, so long as other options have been explored first and the medication is accompanied with by continued training, IMO.

Toby originally came from a puppy mill so I have absolutely no idea what is parents were like. I think there is a very high likely hood with him and many dogs part of his issues comes from bad breeding, since we all know that a badly bred sheltie can be neurotic. That, coupled with never being socialized during that critical time period of his life are probably the reasons Toby is the way he is.

From our own experience few things things work well for Leo who is auditory sensitive. Leo was sensitive to dishwasher sound and would bark madly to it.

Choose the sound and you want to deal with lets say closing the oven door. Go to the furthest point of your house where Toby does not react to it. You must have dog bed with heavily positive reinforced habits there. Put him on that dog bed and let someone close that oven door several times, it must be his choice to stay on that dog bed or react to it. If reacts, record the sound and make is softer for next session. If does not react and stays on the bed, jackpot with sky high value treats. Treats should be given in rapid succession 10-15 at the time of choice point made. If you go this route you will notice that the more dog allowed to make choices the calmer dog feels and less triggers he has. Distance duration and intensity are your variables but choice is always belongs to the dog.

That sounds great in theory, but Toby reacts more strongly when he is away from the sound that scares him than when he is close to it. I've been trying to work with him on it and get get him to be happy and calm right next to the oven, but as soon as it makes a noise when he's away from it he looses his mind, which really doesn't make sense. I'm going to get my dh to help me and see what happens. I don't think I need to record it, as I've mentioned, he hears it fine from the other room.

Another option-let someone close door and get into really fun game with your other girls- goofy, noisy something really fun and see what Toby choice is. For us it was really helpful that Che is calm dog, Leo learned fast from imitating him as well.

I use this type of training with Toby already but it only works when his anxiety hasn't ramped up to a really high level. He gets too upset too fast for this to work with regard to the oven or smoke alarm.

 

[SheltieChe]

then break it into smaller pieces. At which point is he getting nervous? And I do not mean lunging and barking but when his ears start flicking, muscle on the face start tensing, eyes getting fixated i.e. he is getting ready to lunge- at the point of you entering the kitchen? touching the oven? Get the bed and reinforce staying behavior at that point- short sessions of no more than couple minutes each with high value treats, 3-5 repetitions thru the day, then advance to next mini step. It has been my understanding that dogs react more strongly when they feel they are NOT GIVEN A CHOICE. That is when anxiety builds up and fight / flight response kicks in .... some dogs go into fight like my lovable fuzzy Leo and some dogs shut down and go into flight response...
Showing dog that he does have a choice makes all the difference in the world and it does not take long for them to generalize to making good choices into most common situations and sounds.

 

[OntarioSheltie]

then break it into smaller pieces. At which point is he getting nervous? And I do not mean lunging and barking but when his ears start flicking, muscle on the face start tensing, eyes getting fixated i.e. he is getting ready to lunge- at the point of you entering the kitchen? touching the oven? Get the bed and reinforce staying behavior at that point- short sessions of no more than couple minutes each with high value treats, 3-5 repetitions thru the day, then advance to next mini step. It has been my understanding that dogs react more strongly when they feel they are NOT GIVEN A CHOICE. That is when anxiety builds up and fight / flight response kicks in .... some dogs go into fight like my lovable fuzzy Leo and some dogs shut down and go into flight response...
Showing dog that he does have a choice makes all the difference in the world and it does not take long for them to generalize to making good choices into most common situations and sounds.

His behavior can't always be predicted and I can't work on him throughout the day, since we're not home through out the day. I've been trying to work with him in the evenings when we're around.

He is fine with me walking in the kitchen and I can work at the stove and walk around it just fine with him in the kitchen with me our with him somewhere else. He freaks when he hears the door squeak. The anxiety doesn't build, he goes directly from a zero to a 10+ with nothing in between. In this case, I don't believe he is making a choice. He hears the noise and becomes instantly panic stricken.

I've tried having him in the kitchen when it opens and he'll calm down after a while. I can even get him to lie down and be calm when I open/close it repeatedly with praise and rewards. But if I do the same thing with him outside of the kitchen, he instantly becomes too beside himself to listen to any kind of reason. He shuts down and becomes unresponsive. Only instead of curling up in a ball, he runs around and barks frantically like he has no idea what he's doing.

 

[SheltieChe]

I think it is extremely difficult if your dog has a history of rehearsed behavior. You have been making terrific progress with Toby. I do not know if I ever be able to get such a task on my shoulders, I have made enough of my own mistakes with Che and Leo training, let alone to retrain other people's poor choices. Sounds like you are on right path and just need more consistency and yeah, some days it is one step forward and two steps backwards.
If you happen to have Crate Games DVD I would suggest using it and following to the letter. It is pretty much foundation of all SG training and it has built in control and distraction games. It might provide Toby with choices he does not know he has.

 

[OntarioSheltie]

I'm sorry if I sound defensive, I'm just frustrated.

Each time I train him out of or desensitize him to some behavior, he invents a new one. It doesn't matter how much exercise he gets or how much I do, there's always something else.

He's driving us crazy with his terror barking and at the same time I feel so bad that he's so anxious. Nothing I try to do ever seems to be enough.

Maybe his progress isn't as good as I thought. He's doing much better on walks but he's a wreck in our yard and in the house now. I think any progress I thought he'd made has been cancelled out by these new behaviors.