Honestly, those people names mean nothing to me. At all. So putting it that way, means nothing. Just makes you sound like you're trying to talk above everyone, and make you sound "extra special".
Bone/Fine Bone
- Thread starter corbinam
- Start date
Honestly, those people names mean nothing to me. At all. So putting it that way, means nothing. Just makes you sound like you're trying to talk above everyone, and make you sound "extra special".
missjenneygirl
Forums Enthusiast
I'm sorry if it makes me sound above the rest. I assumed since you have been showing, and your kennel has been around so long, that these highly respected, almost infamous old time sheltie people, would be people you either showed to, or followed the impacts they have made on the breed. Tom Coen (Macdega) is the person who has been in shelties over 50 years and was head of the committee to update the standard years ago. Linda More is head of the American Shetland Sheepdog Association Judges Education, teaching judges about the nuances of shelties, who are going to be judging the breed. One of the most highly regarded all breed Best in Show judges. I don't know what to say.
Jessica R. My thoughts on this is, to get away from the foxy type of sheltie, breeders started to breed for more bone. It gave refinement to the head. You can't pick and choose where you want bone, say in the legs, but not in the backskull. So, the only time you would say you have too much bone, is when the backskull is wide and deep in conjunction with the tree trunk legs. That would produce a coarse, clunky dog. So we breed for overall bone and structure, with extra thought on head detail. Moderate is the word of the day. No one part stands out.
Jessica R. My thoughts on this is, to get away from the foxy type of sheltie, breeders started to breed for more bone. It gave refinement to the head. You can't pick and choose where you want bone, say in the legs, but not in the backskull. So, the only time you would say you have too much bone, is when the backskull is wide and deep in conjunction with the tree trunk legs. That would produce a coarse, clunky dog. So we breed for overall bone and structure, with extra thought on head detail. Moderate is the word of the day. No one part stands out.
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tofu pup
Moderator
These are very good questions, and here's how I look at it:
Shelties were originally bred to herd sheep in a very specific environment. You can go as far as to say that they were bred to herd a specific type of sheep (small, primitive) for a specific kind of owner (generally poor, crofter) in a specific environment (harsh, cold, unforgiving).
Very, very few Shelties being produced today are going to be expected to do that job in that environment. This goes for so many breeds: how many Rhodesian Ridgebacks are going to be hunting lions on the Veldt? How many Norwegian Elkhounds are going to be baying moose just below the Arctic Circle? I don't think that it's necessarily a bad thing to recognize that our dogs are no longer expected to fulfill their traditional purposes.
So where does that leave me, the show-breeder? I think about what the modern Sheltie is expected to do: be healthy, stay sound, be a loving family companion. Yes, there are people who herd with their Shelties (and even use them in their daily chores on the farm), but their number is dwarfed by the number of people who do agility or obedience with their Shelties. The number looks even smaller against the number of people who just want a sweet, smart pet Sheltie.
We live in a very different world from that inhabited by the crofters of 19th century Shetland. Many breeders just don't have the opportunity to see if their dogs could herd (and how does a breeder from Florida determine if their dogs could cope with a North Sea winter?). Herding instinct isn't something that we place a high priority on, because our personal and national economies no longer rely on sheep and the dogs that herd them. There are niche breeders who breed Shelties with herding as a specific goal, but for the rest of us - why select specifically for an instinct that is no longer useful, and that the average Sheltie will have little opportunity to fulfill?
We DO evaluate how well a dog is put together, how balanced it is, how moderate. We evaluate temperament. We evaluate genetic health. And yes, we evaluate the "look", because we want to produce dogs that look like Shelties and are pleasing to the eye. I realize that this may not be a popular viewpoint, but I'm being honest. I don't think that those of us who don't have access to sheep should quit breeding Shelties, because Shelties aren't just sheep-herders anymore: they're wonderful pets, they're amazing agility dogs, they're brilliant obedience dogs, and they're lovely show dogs.
We could mourn for the loss of the traditional use of the Sheltie, but I don't think that our modern, suburban dogs suffer much for it. We do need to continue to strive for dogs who can do their jobs: the job is a little different now, but it still requires intelligence, soundness, and a good temperament.
I don't think that the US dogs in general have too much bone. Coarseness and clunky skulls are out there, and this is an extreme that must be avoided as much as its opposite (snipyness, fineness, fragility). Moderation is the key: a sturdy yet refined Sheltie remains the ideal.
Shelties were originally bred to herd sheep in a very specific environment. You can go as far as to say that they were bred to herd a specific type of sheep (small, primitive) for a specific kind of owner (generally poor, crofter) in a specific environment (harsh, cold, unforgiving).
Very, very few Shelties being produced today are going to be expected to do that job in that environment. This goes for so many breeds: how many Rhodesian Ridgebacks are going to be hunting lions on the Veldt? How many Norwegian Elkhounds are going to be baying moose just below the Arctic Circle? I don't think that it's necessarily a bad thing to recognize that our dogs are no longer expected to fulfill their traditional purposes.
So where does that leave me, the show-breeder? I think about what the modern Sheltie is expected to do: be healthy, stay sound, be a loving family companion. Yes, there are people who herd with their Shelties (and even use them in their daily chores on the farm), but their number is dwarfed by the number of people who do agility or obedience with their Shelties. The number looks even smaller against the number of people who just want a sweet, smart pet Sheltie.
We live in a very different world from that inhabited by the crofters of 19th century Shetland. Many breeders just don't have the opportunity to see if their dogs could herd (and how does a breeder from Florida determine if their dogs could cope with a North Sea winter?). Herding instinct isn't something that we place a high priority on, because our personal and national economies no longer rely on sheep and the dogs that herd them. There are niche breeders who breed Shelties with herding as a specific goal, but for the rest of us - why select specifically for an instinct that is no longer useful, and that the average Sheltie will have little opportunity to fulfill?
We DO evaluate how well a dog is put together, how balanced it is, how moderate. We evaluate temperament. We evaluate genetic health. And yes, we evaluate the "look", because we want to produce dogs that look like Shelties and are pleasing to the eye. I realize that this may not be a popular viewpoint, but I'm being honest. I don't think that those of us who don't have access to sheep should quit breeding Shelties, because Shelties aren't just sheep-herders anymore: they're wonderful pets, they're amazing agility dogs, they're brilliant obedience dogs, and they're lovely show dogs.
We could mourn for the loss of the traditional use of the Sheltie, but I don't think that our modern, suburban dogs suffer much for it. We do need to continue to strive for dogs who can do their jobs: the job is a little different now, but it still requires intelligence, soundness, and a good temperament.
I don't think that the US dogs in general have too much bone. Coarseness and clunky skulls are out there, and this is an extreme that must be avoided as much as its opposite (snipyness, fineness, fragility). Moderation is the key: a sturdy yet refined Sheltie remains the ideal.
Thank you very much for the explaination!! I am just starting out with showing so sometimes it gets overwhelming when reading all the different oppinions on what a sheltie should look like. I love to hear everyones explantions it really puts everything into perspective.
Justicemom
Forums Celebrity
Thank you for clarifying. That is why I want to add a little more bone to Diva's line. I want a better head piece. Her line tends to go the otherway in too light not good either.
Could you explain the deep backskull. I think I know what you mean. Is it like a wedge when seen from the side? My friend had a sheltie in for training that had a head so big it look like an anvil on his neck. The muzzle look small compared to the rest of his head yet it was full. He was a champion but I didn't care for him at all. He was so different looking.
It hard when you talk of genralizations all shelties are this or that,when in reality most are in the middle and only a few are on the extremes. Your dogs are very nice BTW. Diva got a reserve from Chalotte McGowen when she was 7 months.
These pix look more BC than Collie to me, too. Phebe's body type is very similar to this. She is definitely oversize at about 17" but slender at 24 lbs and medium-boned. Sometimes when I'm playing ball with her she goes into a semi-crouch, flattens her ears and get s a BC look in her eye.
I'm a believer in moderation when it comes to bone. I like to see structure that is sturdy without sacrificing flexibilty or speed. I think dogs like this are less likely to experience injury in performance or just casual play.
Yes please!
I too think I know what you mean, but could you give a little explanion! Like I said I am still learning, boy is their lots to learn 
HopeShelties
Forums Enthusiast
I tend toward liking the same thing Justicemom and Phebe like as well... a moderate dog. I'm also with Justicemom in that if given the choice, I'd also lean toward a lighter build over too heavily boned, and for the same reasons. Your speed dogs in the agility ring are not the thick, heavy boned ones. They are the moderate or lighter boned dogs.
Like Phebe, structural soundness is a biggie for me, given what I do with my dogs. I want a dog who is going to hold up over a long career, and I want a dog with a lot of reach and drive, to give my driven dog the ability to move out not only in the breed ring, but also on the agility course, and out herding stock.
As an aside, I feel it is a shame the Sheltie is losing a lot of its' herding instinct. Truly talented herding Shelties are few and far between. It is something that is increasingly difficult to find in a dog. It is also difficult to find the high drive dog suitable for the highest level of agility competition. A large part of the dogs being bred are lacking in drive. We do lose people to the Border Collies for this reason. If it's difficult to find this type of dog in our breed, and people become frustrated in searching for it, so they go to other breeds to find it. I know of several people who fit this. I also know of Border Collie people who have been won over to having Shelties because of the drive my dogs exhibit, when they've felt that there weren't dogs like that in the breed. Just saying though that the belief is out there that the Sheltie breed can not be these high caliber athletes, because the ones with drive are sometimes hard to find.
Like Phebe, structural soundness is a biggie for me, given what I do with my dogs. I want a dog who is going to hold up over a long career, and I want a dog with a lot of reach and drive, to give my driven dog the ability to move out not only in the breed ring, but also on the agility course, and out herding stock.
As an aside, I feel it is a shame the Sheltie is losing a lot of its' herding instinct. Truly talented herding Shelties are few and far between. It is something that is increasingly difficult to find in a dog. It is also difficult to find the high drive dog suitable for the highest level of agility competition. A large part of the dogs being bred are lacking in drive. We do lose people to the Border Collies for this reason. If it's difficult to find this type of dog in our breed, and people become frustrated in searching for it, so they go to other breeds to find it. I know of several people who fit this. I also know of Border Collie people who have been won over to having Shelties because of the drive my dogs exhibit, when they've felt that there weren't dogs like that in the breed. Just saying though that the belief is out there that the Sheltie breed can not be these high caliber athletes, because the ones with drive are sometimes hard to find.
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