Bone/Fine Bone

Yes please!:biggrin2: I too think I know what you mean, but could you give a little explanion! Like I said I am still learning, boy is their lots to learn :lol:

I know, I learn something everytime I go to a show. I don't do the actual ring handling but I'm in the grooming area learning all I can.:smile2:
 
So is that a "I think that American shelties are becoming too heavy boned" or "I think that they're fine"?


Well, I'll put it this way. With the winning our breeding program has seen under the likes of Breeder Judge Linda More, Best Of Opposite Sex ASSA National, under Breeder Judge Charlotte McGowen, Best of Breeds and Group 1's, under Breeder Judge Sandy McIntosh-Feret, BISS Best of Breed. Best of Breed under Breeder Judge Tom Coen, 2 ASSA National Award of Merits under Breeder Judges Melanie Williams, and Larry Brunner, Specialty Best of Winners and Best of Breed over specials, Breeder Judge Roderick Thompson. Multiple Specialty WD, WB, BOW, Best in Sweeps. Two National Futurity class winners. Multiple Group 1's. Two Westminster Kennel Club, Best of Opposite Sex Awards. And I only have 8 dogs.

"I think they're fine".


Your Shelties are breathtaking -- I love the Rabbit Run look. I have the special issue on your dogs, and I treasure it! :yes:
 
Wow, Chris, Thank You!

To describe a deep head. For this lesson, we will be looking at the dog's head profile.Dog is facing left. Remember it should be a blunt wedge. The blunt part comes in as the end of the nose leather, and if the imaginary line goes straight down, and the chin is even with the nose, and looks substanial, that is when we say the dog has enough underjaw. The nose leather should not protrude past the underjaw (idealy). This is because the nose should not look like it is stuck on, and thus subject to injury. If the nose is pointy, and protrudes past the underjaw, the dog is lacking underjaw.

Now, the wedge. Deep or not deep. As your imaginary line goes from the nose to the top of the backskull, and the chin to the throat, look at how open your wedge is. Take your hand and put your fingers on the topskull, (Top of head), and your thumb under the throat where it meets the neck. That is how we measure depth. With your hand in this position, imagine how open, or not, your wedge would be, from the nose to the top and the chin on the bottom. Like this
"<"
Let me know if this makes sense.............I'll be back..........got to go do dogs....
 
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I would love to hear from breeder/showers across in the ocean - Europe and Australia

Come out, come out, whereever you are!

I think its an important discussion (as long as we all keep our heads and not get defensive).

I've got one of each type. I love them both, but frankly Bacca looks more like a collie than a sheltie, with his long body and big build. And yes, he came from show stock.
 
Barb, that's a great idea! How do they evaulate heads across the seas, and what is really important to them. Do they see missing teeth?
 
These are very good questions, and here's how I look at it:

Shelties were originally bred to herd sheep in a very specific environment. You can go as far as to say that they were bred to herd a specific type of sheep (small, primitive) for a specific kind of owner (generally poor, crofter) in a specific environment (harsh, cold, unforgiving).

Very, very few Shelties being produced today are going to be expected to do that job in that environment. This goes for so many breeds: how many Rhodesian Ridgebacks are going to be hunting lions on the Veldt? How many Norwegian Elkhounds are going to be baying moose just below the Arctic Circle? I don't think that it's necessarily a bad thing to recognize that our dogs are no longer expected to fulfill their traditional purposes.

So where does that leave me, the show-breeder? I think about what the modern Sheltie is expected to do: be healthy, stay sound, be a loving family companion. Yes, there are people who herd with their Shelties (and even use them in their daily chores on the farm), but their number is dwarfed by the number of people who do agility or obedience with their Shelties. The number looks even smaller against the number of people who just want a sweet, smart pet Sheltie.

We live in a very different world from that inhabited by the crofters of 19th century Shetland. Many breeders just don't have the opportunity to see if their dogs could herd (and how does a breeder from Florida determine if their dogs could cope with a North Sea winter?). Herding instinct isn't something that we place a high priority on, because our personal and national economies no longer rely on sheep and the dogs that herd them. There are niche breeders who breed Shelties with herding as a specific goal, but for the rest of us - why select specifically for an instinct that is no longer useful, and that the average Sheltie will have little opportunity to fulfill?

We DO evaluate how well a dog is put together, how balanced it is, how moderate. We evaluate temperament. We evaluate genetic health. And yes, we evaluate the "look", because we want to produce dogs that look like Shelties and are pleasing to the eye. I realize that this may not be a popular viewpoint, but I'm being honest. I don't think that those of us who don't have access to sheep should quit breeding Shelties, because Shelties aren't just sheep-herders anymore: they're wonderful pets, they're amazing agility dogs, they're brilliant obedience dogs, and they're lovely show dogs.

We could mourn for the loss of the traditional use of the Sheltie, but I don't think that our modern, suburban dogs suffer much for it. We do need to continue to strive for dogs who can do their jobs: the job is a little different now, but it still requires intelligence, soundness, and a good temperament.

I don't think that the US dogs in general have too much bone. Coarseness and clunky skulls are out there, and this is an extreme that must be avoided as much as its opposite (snipyness, fineness, fragility). Moderation is the key: a sturdy yet refined Sheltie remains the ideal.

Thank you for your post. I missed it the first time I don't know how.:smile2: Discussion is a good thing thats how we learn. I appreciate your reasoning. Our world has changed. I'm from western South Dakota and I had the honor if see many working cattle and sheep dogs on my rounds with our vet. The breeds were mostly ACD and Aussies or mixes of those 2, with an occasional BC thrown in. I never saw a sheltie work until I came to Minnesota. My dogs came from actual herding shelties in Wisconsin in the late 80's. Their pedigrees were pretty non descript, if they did the job that was all that mattered. Over the last 6 generations my breeder has been slowly making her way to a typey all around dog that kept the instint of those herding dogs. In the last generation there has been 2 Can ch and several AKC pointed dogs. She is a small breeder and has produced few dogs about 40 in 20yrs. She believes that instint makes better performance dogs.I don't know if that true but her dogs are great workers with about 70% of them titled in some kind performance event. Different philosophy I guess. :smile2:
 
Wow, Chris, Thank You!

To discribe a deep head. For this lesson, we will be looking at the dog's head profile.Dog is facing left. Remember it should be a blunt wedge. The blunt part comes in as the end of the nose leather, and if the imaginary line goes straight down, and the chin is even with the nose, and looks substanial, that is when we say the dog has enough underjaw. The nose leather should not protrude past the underjaw (idealy). This is because the nose should not look like it is stuck on, and thus subject to injury. If the nose is pointy, and protrudes past the underjaw, the dog is lacking underjaw.

Now, the wedge. Deep or not deep. As your imaginary line goes from the nose to the top of the backskull, and the chin to the throat, look at how open your wedge is. Take your hand and put your fingers on the topskull, (Top of head), and your thumb under the troat where it meets the neck. That is how we measure depth. With your hand in this position, imagine how open, or not, your wedge would be, from the nose to the top and the chin on the bottom. Like this
"<"
Let me know if this makes sense.............I'll be back..........got to go do dogs....


Thank you. That's what I thought I just wanted to make sure I was on the same page. :smile2: The lack of underjaw is something I want to improve. Diva is not too bad. Ember is snipy. But I've been told that she has an english head.:confused2: When is the best time to evaluate puppies for proper underjaw? Puppies faces just look so different.
 
Let me state right up front, I am TOTALLY ignorant of this, but would love to learn, so I am reading......here and books. My questions might be elementary but I am still curious and would like to know.

Cleveland was very "light" in build. Too long legged, however all of his other proportions (head and body) seemed right to me, an artists eye. He looked like a "dog."

Teddy has the same physical build as Cleveland did, but his face is very coyote~ish looking. Very "V" shaped. Honestly the little guy looks more coyote than dog.

In the lighter built shelties, is the head judged the same way, should you be looking for the same lines?

McKinley is SO different than Cleveland and Teddy and it must be what you are talking about in "bone."

(Personally, if it looks like a sheltie, thinks like a sheltie, zooms like a sheltie. I love it. Lightly built or sturdy build.......ok I will go back to reading.......Thanks in advance for the info.)
 
To me the biggest key is how well the dog is put together. And, if everything follows the standard pat. Does everything fit and go into place well? Does that head look to bulky for that body? It takes a while to develop an eye for what looks correct and what doesn't.

Jean Simmonds actually bred the dog that I posted a link to in an earlier post on this thread. So, yes she uses bone in her lines. As long as it fits... and things don't look out of proportion.

Shelties have changed heaps since the early days. Hocks, coat, eyes and yes bone are totally different than before. CH Mowgli for one who has had a BIG impact and will show up in just about everyone's pedigree... I really doubt he'd have that CH today if he showed up in a modern breed ring.

I for one love the way the shelties look who are going into the ring today. :yes:
 
Let me state right up front, I am TOTALLY ignorant of this, but would love to learn, so I am reading......here and books. My questions might be elementary but I am still curious and would like to know.

Cleveland was very "light" in build. Too long legged, however all of his other proportions (head and body) seemed right to me, an artists eye. He looked like a "dog."

Teddy has the same physical build as Cleveland did, but his face is very coyote~ish looking. Very "V" shaped. Honestly the little guy looks more coyote than dog.

In the lighter built shelties, is the head judged the same way, should you be looking for the same lines?

McKinley is SO different than Cleveland and Teddy and it must be what you are talking about in "bone."

(Personally, if it looks like a sheltie, thinks like a sheltie, zooms like a sheltie. I love it. Lightly built or sturdy build.......ok I will go back to reading.......Thanks in advance for the info.)

Well, let me tell you about the legs... those are the easiest to understand. If he has little bitty legs(skinny) as far as the circumference goes he is light bone. :-) Yes, the head is judged the same regardless of the amount of bone.
 
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