Breaking the treat dependency?

[Strider]

Our opinion:

Stop giving treats, cold turkey for basic commands and obedience. You will always be tied to treats if they are used for anything other than.........treats.

Defined: Treats are something, such as one's food or entertainment, that are paid for by someone else.

Let me explain, if I may (and if I am able in writing).

Your dog in his/her action of obedience is making a payment for the food, therefore, it is not a treat. But many will state that the food is truly a "reward." Reward being a positive reinforcement for performance of a desired behavior.

But here is where is gets tricky. Think like a dog, not as a human. What is food to a dog? Food is a biological need. Food as a reward creates confusion in dogs. The dog thinks he is able to get more food (meaning better survival) by performing desired behaviors.

This is why a dog will run up to you and automatically sit, or automatically dance or beg or whatever is the best means of receiving food: survival.

You have the ability to take your companionship with your pet to a higher level, by building a relationship without the use of food. Use a bright smiling face, welcoming pats on the head and soft spoken words of encouragement and care for positive encouragement, and I promise you will have the best fellowship you will ever have with a dog. And shelties do this best because they are so highly intelligent.

This is not a popular opinion, but we use no treats or rewards of food in training. In training they are learning their place in the grand scheme of the world and what is their relationship to you. When we are all just sitting around in the evening and everything is relaxed and nothing is going on, the dogs will get a "treat." A food treat paid for by us out of our good will.

Again, this is a good subject and must be discussed gently because we are working on inference and we are making our decisions based on opinions.

I have heard of this type of training. It's used with working dog environments a lot. I have seen some VERY amazing dogs that have been trained like this. I wish I had the time and training to implement this.

For me and the time and background I have, I'll use treats as currency to train behavior.

 

[romeosangiovese]

I like JamCrackers method and it's certainly something to work towards. Personally tho' I seem to need a "bridge" to get to that and slowly wean that bridge off!! Sigh!

SheepOfBlue, I've been in your shoes before! What I did was make it impossible for Romeo to know if a treat is coming or where it's coming from, and by introducing other forms of rewards and also working around food.

So I would treat randomly - ie. sometimes the trick gets a treat, sometimes it gets a cuddle or something non-food but equally rewarding like jumping onto the bed (introducing other forms of rewards). Diff dogs like diff things so it can be anything from jumping up on to your lap to belly rubs to chasing a ball or tugging. Oh I never treat any trick that is given without me giving a cue!!

Then I would put my treats EVERYWHERE but not on me and not in the usual box/cookie jar. I put small ziplock bags/containers around the house with treats. When I ask for a behaviour and get it, I cheer/clap/praise and go "you want a treat? let's go get it!" and run to wherever I've hidden it. So the dog realises food may be coming even if you don't have it on you or even if you haven't walked to the cookie jar all day.

Then I started training with plates of food around so they become normal distractions which eventually fade into the background and mean nothing. I start off with a plate of not so nice food (not high value) far away, then slowly up the ante by using higher value food put closer. I find that with very high value food right next to Romeo he must ALWAYS face it. I can never get a proper "front" (him sitting facing me). He'll always be in a position where his body is sort of facing the food. Hahah! Gotta work on that one!

 

[Abby's Dad]

Abby too is food motivated like no other sheltie I have had.....and at 9 months she needs to loose 1 lb now. Imagine me trying that!!! But I stopped treating at 8 months after using the clicker. Now it is just that, a treat once in a while.

 

[Megansmom]

Our opinion:

Stop giving treats, cold turkey for basic commands and obedience. You will always be tied to treats if they are used for anything other than.........treats.

Defined: Treats are something, such as one's food or entertainment, that are paid for by someone else.

Let me explain, if I may (and if I am able in writing).

Your dog in his/her action of obedience is making a payment for the food, therefore, it is not a treat. But many will state that the food is truly a "reward." Reward being a positive reinforcement for performance of a desired behavior.

But here is where is gets tricky. Think like a dog, not as a human. What is food to a dog? Food is a biological need. Food as a reward creates confusion in dogs. The dog thinks he is able to get more food (meaning better survival) by performing desired behaviors.

This is why a dog will run up to you and automatically sit, or automatically dance or beg or whatever is the best means of receiving food: survival.

You have the ability to take your companionship with your pet to a higher level, by building a relationship without the use of food. Use a bright smiling face, welcoming pats on the head and soft spoken words of encouragement and care for positive reinforcement, and I promise you will have the best fellowship you will ever have with a dog. And shelties do this best because they are so highly intelligent.

This is not a popular opinion, but we use no treats or rewards of food in training. In training they are learning their place in the grand scheme of the world and what is their relationship to you. When we are all just sitting around in the evening and everything is relaxed and nothing is going on, the dogs will get a "treat." A food treat paid for by us out of our good will.

Again, this is a good subject and must be discussed gently because we are working on inference and we are making our decisions based on opinions.

IMHO, I completely agree with you . Megan will do anything for me when she has a treat to work for and it made it harder for her to listen when she had no treat. It takes a little longer to train somethings, but in the end it was better, for us anyway. I stopped using them during training and simply do the verbal accolades and physical affection.

 

[Lahree]

This is fasinating to me. I trained my first two Shelties without using any treats. But, then again, neither were food motivated. Ellie would throw her mother under a bus for food. She also refuses to do much of anything without a treat. We are now fully aware we created a monster by training her with treats. I think we will implement with suggestions other people outlines in the thread. Wish us luck!

 

[Justicemom]

It isn't using food during training that is the problem, it is how food is used. When we first start training our dogs food is used as a lure not a reward. We put the food above their nose and lure them into a sit. We pull the food to the ground and get them to down and so it goes. At some point the food needs to be moved from a lure or bribe if you will, to a reward. This should happen very early in training when understanding is just happening. No true learning can happen until is does. To move, the food to a reward, food needs to become invisible. The dog never knows if you have it or not. It should be mixed with praise, toys and petting(things you always have with you). It should also be on a random schedule(slot machine) vs set ratio(ie vending machine 1 behavior= 1 reward). If it is not the dog gets frustrated easily and quits. How long would you put money in a vending machine if you got no product back everytime. How about a slot machine?

Removing food from training is like throwing the baby out with the bath water. Old time jerk and yank trainers did this. They thought food made a dog work dependent on it so they wouldn't use it. They didn't know how to use it either. We know better now. Food is a powerful motivater for so many dogs and a bridge to building social and play drive in dogs not so inclined. It should never be used all the time or replace the relationship we are trying to bulid with our dogs.

A good article:

http://dogtime.com/dog-training-food-lures-rewards-dunbar.html

 

[Lahree]

It isn't using food during training that is the problem, it is how food is used. When we first start training our dogs food is used as a lure not a reward. We put the food above their nose and lure them into a sit. We pull the food to the ground and get them to down and so it goes. At some point the food needs to be moved from a lure or bribe if you will, to a reward. This should happen very early in training when understanding is just happening. No true learning can happen until is does. To move, the food to a reward, food needs to become invisible. The dog never knows if you have it or not. It should be mixed with praise, toys and petting(things you always have with you). It should also be on a random schedule(slot machine) vs set ratio(ie vending machine 1 behavior= 1 reward). If it is not the dog gets frustrated easily and quits. How long would you put money in a vending machine if you got no product back everytime. How about a slot machine?

Removing food from training is like throwing the baby out with the bath water. Old time jerk and yank trainers did this. They thought food made a dog work dependent on it so they wouldn't use it. They didn't know how to use it either. We know better now. Food is a powerful motivater for so many dogs and a bridge to building social and play drive in dogs not so inclined. It should never be used all the time or replace the relationship we are trying to bulid with our dogs.

A good article:

http://dogtime.com/dog-training-food-lures-rewards-dunbar.html

The article was fasinating and I think very good advice! makes total, logical sense to me. We will begin phasing out food treats right away. Thanks for this article!

 

[Lovely]

The article was fasinating and I think very good advice! makes total, logical sense to me. We will begin phasing out food treats right away. Thanks for this article!

I second this! It makes a lot of sense and I am going to start the fade on my own boys!